Crossover Works

[Tyrel Lohr]

Okay, so I lost all my B5 work and am going to have to start over. So I thought I'd figure out what folks would prefer:

Sorry to hear that!

1) A standard, 24 year fleet list for each race (34 units)? Standard VBAM
2) A 24 year fleet list with 2 units per year (58 units)? Allows for more variants, bit more of a B5W feel.
3) A listing of basic classes, all Year 0 (aka 3000) with notes/thoughs on fleshing them out. (variants, projected growth, etc.) Sort of a build your own list idea. eg. Here's the Hyperion at Y0, 6, 12, 18, 24.

After playing around with things here, I'm of two minds with a conversion like this. One is to have it be completely stand alone and just arbitrarily assign and adjust stats as you go, using the unit construction rules as a rough guideline. Otherwise, what might work best is to use a 48 tech modifier instead of 24 and then pick an arbitrary starting year to begin advancing from. Then you could provide both a B5 Tech Year and a VBAM Tech Year. That way players that want to play with strict B5 ISD can do so, while those that just want a new unit available each year could use the VBAM ISD (or get 2 units per Tech Year, if they want to maintain base game compatibility).

I do think you're on to something using the B5 ISD's as starting points but ignoring them for better game play, especially when it comes to the Minbari. What I mean by that is that it would be more fun for the Minbari player to be saddled with the old Tigara, Sharaal, and Tishat at the start of the game and have to research to unlock their better units.

I also have a feeling that a lot of the variants will end up left by the wayside, although a test conversion I did over vacation after seeing your original post made me think that there might be enough room in a 48 slot force list (vs 24) to get those to all fit in.

[Haukea]

Okay, my new, 30 year EA force list. Basically I took the most common classes and plugged them in, tossed in either upgrades or variants. [Yes, I realize there's no ground forces.]

For the EA I decided that the Hyperion, with the most variants, was likely the workhorse of the EA and got the most units allocated.

As for traits, I introduced the Interceptors for the EA, and is as follows:
Maint +1, CP cost 1/level - Effect: Can be used to raise either DV or AF of the equipped unit by the Interceptors value; can be split between DV and AF for multiple levels of Interceptors. [Interceptors therefore make the EA more maintenance heavy as a result, but reflects the dedicated defences they have.]

The last value x/y, is the CV that is allotted specifically to fighters (x) and shuttles/other (y).

Over all I'm seeing static defences being ships, mines, and satellites as the primary, with bases (being the humongous things they tended to be in the series), being large and a significant investment.

[Tyrel Lohr]

Okay, my new, 30 year EA force list. Basically I took the most common classes and plugged them in, tossed in either upgrades or variants. [Yes, I realize there's no ground forces.]

I have a feeling that for the type of force lists you're creating that you could get away with having a single set of ground forces inspired by the GROPOS unit selection and call it good. Kind of a cop-out, but I think it would be fine for the B5 universe where the ground warfare is decidedly a secondary concern. Now, a universe like Star Wars that has ground forces everywhere -- then you would want to make sure they were woven in.

I like your take on the conversion, and I think that approach should work out fine. Interceptors being a versatile stat makes sense and seems to match up the B5W style mechanics where they can make units harder to hit or better against fighters.

The force list composition is pretty interesting for what it gives them over time, too. It seems like the upgrades come at a pretty decent rate and there's always something new to keep the EA player researching. That was our problem in some conversions (B5 or otherwise), where you'd have an empire that just didn't have any real reason to continue researching beyond a certain point because they wouldn't have anything to gain from it (like the Minbari if all they have to look forward to is the Neshatan and White Stars).

[Haukea]

Continuing with the conversion, I present the Minbari and Centauri.

I'm not terribly happy with the way the Centauri turned out, but I'd like to know what others think. The Minbari got Jammers over Stealth (see a previous post here for that suggestion). The Centauri I tried for more smaller ships to keep with their wolf-pack ideals, and I almost didn't give the Minbari the White Stars, but caved at the last second.

Once I'm done with the Narn I'm going to put together a generic units list - some ground forces, mines, civilian transports, etc.

[Tyrel Lohr]

It's interesting that the you gave the Minbari the Neshatan from Year 0 rather than having it come around later, given that it was a post-Earth/Minbari War unit, but I can see why you did it. It fills a hole in the Minbari order of battle and gives them a Gunship to use. I do like that the progression gives the Minbari player a reason to keep investing into tech to get the nicer versions of their units.

The Centauri on the surface look pretty good at first glance. I think their biggest issue early on is that they do have so many specialty hulls that give them a wide array of special abilities, but it also makes them cost more so that the Centauri can bring comparatively fewer ships into battle. This is overcome fairly quickly, though, and they still have a good core set of ships in the Primus, Altarian, and Vorchan that they can rely on as the workhorses of the fleet.

The only change that I might recommend is actually making the Dargan a Stealth ship. That would let it fulfill its role of hiding its presence from the enemy, even if only a little. It also gives the Centauri something unique that they can do that no one else can do. Of course, that part of the AOG Centauri fluff never made a lot of sense, as it seemed kind of out of place to have the one stealth warship and fighter combo running around, so it might be just as well to leave them as is.

[Haukea]

Yeah, it was either put the Neshatan in there at Y0, or put a Tinashi variant in there to fill out the slot; really a coin flip moment, could have gone either way. As for the Dargan, I missed the Stealth completely; it's part of the reason I wasn't very happy with the list, thought I could do with more Primuses and replace the Dargans.

The Centauri are a bit pricey because I am applying the +1 Cost to units with a Jump Engine; the lists can easily be modified to reduce the costs. In fact, I just might do that to make them more comparable with the Rulebook Units. (This was part of my over all goal; my notes to self cover using them with a few specific rule modifications.)

Truth be told, my assigning units is almost a random procedure; I do try and fit them in so that most of them see a CP increase (that was the rational for having multiples of the same unit as opposed to a whole list of different units, as well as having an incentive to research.)

[Tyrel Lohr]

I think the Centauri being a bit pricey is fine. I have a feeling most players are going to end up using the Jump Engine optional rules from the Companion once that book is released, and having the +1 Cost modifier for Jump already built into the list will be handy.

As for randomly assigning stats to units, that is more or less what it amounts to regardless of what you're converting. Sometimes you can create a formula that makes the conversion a bit easier, but I know for most of my conversions I just take the key units from each faction for the same time period and balance them against each other, and then balance the rest of the units around those key units.

For Babylon 5, that means taking the Omega, Sharlin, Primus, and G'Quan and getting their stats set as you'd prefer, then go on to a few secondary units for each (Olympus, Tinashi, Vorchan, and Rongoth maybe?) so that you have something on the smaller end of the scale balanced against the larger units.

My biggest problem is always trying to figure out what the stats should be forward or backward through that particular setting's time period. When I was testing the B5 ships on my own, I found that using the 48 vs 24 tech modifier let me vary the stats for the various variants (including the Hyperions!) and keep the progression going without breaking things. But it's far from a science.

[Haukea]

Actually I was referring the order in which I placed the units on the list; the values I approximated based on the B5 Wars SCSs.

And with that, I complete the Big 4 (Earth, Narn, Minbari, Centauri) ready for testing.

[Tyrel Lohr]

Actually I was referring the order in which I placed the units on the list; the values I approximated based on the B5 Wars SCSs.

Oh, well, that makes sense, too!

I can understand why you did it. Going by a strictly ISD based deployment schedule would have left some empires with really strange force mixes that would have made it hard to keep up when they kept getting an endless stream of mostly useless units. I ran into that problem with my stab at a FASA Trek force list (which I'll post eventually), but was able to adjust things just enough to keep it fair.

I probably won't be able to run a game with them until I get my move to Cleveland done, but I'll put them through a quick game and see what happens!

BTW, regarding the B5 Ancients, I was thinking how to handle those kinds of powers. What I'm thinking is that you could set them at an absurdly powerful level to begin with (like Tech Year 3048 equivalent at Year 3000) but restrict them to their weakest units, then slowly unlock additional units every 2-4 Tech Years. For example, the Vorlons might start with a Scout, Transport, and Fighter to begin with, then slowly unlock the Destroyer, Light Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, and eventually Dreadnought over the course of the game. That would similarly give them an incentive to continue investing in tech and, despite their forces being very powerful, the limited arsenal at the start would keep them from really leveraging that advantage.

[Haukea]

BTW, regarding the B5 Ancients

Oh, I did them to as more of a side project, taking a break from the force lists. Gave the 5 First Ones a 3090 tech level, and the Shadows and Vorlons a 3060 tech level. Note, they're designed to be played as NPCs (I had envisioned a sort of Masters of Orion 2 type of NPC guarding a really valuable system) mainly because they're grossly, grossly overpowered.

I could always tackle then your way, see what I can churn out.

[Haukea]

And now, for the 2nd part of my conversion test, featuring:
Dilgar
Volons
Shadows
Ancients

Now, at this point the Vorlons, Shadows, and Ancients are meant to be NPCs/Special Encounters. SERIOUSLY, these things are really overpowered - they're designed to direct damage anything they can shoot at. Their DESTROYERS are akin to the average race's BATTLECRUISER.

So, have fun. Questions, comments?

My next project will be Leauge races (Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi, Gaim, Pak'ma'Ra, Vree). Fleet lists are pretty small though, don't know what I'm going to do with them yet. EIther that, or the Centauri-Orieni War.

[mwaschak]

Now, at this point the Vorlons, Shadows, and Ancients are meant to be NPCs/Special Encounters. SERIOUSLY, these things are really overpowered - they're designed to direct damage anything they can shoot at. Their DESTROYERS are akin to the average race's BATTLECRUISER.

I suppose that is no surprise. It really makes the alliance building portion for Sheridan's navy all the more important if they are going to stand up to them.

So, have fun. Questions, comments?

Not here. I have enjoyed following your work so far.

My next project will be Leauge races (Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi, Gaim, Pak'ma'Ra, Vree). Fleet lists are pretty small though, don't know what I'm going to do with them yet. EIther that, or the Centauri-Orieni War.

Hey, great. I need all of these for my next Dilgar Invasion game.

-Jay