1E Encounter Resolution

[uhu79]

Hi, Orok has already posted a question here couple days ago. We started playing not long ago. Difficult game but promising!

Another question from my side on Encounter Resolution and Scenario Generation according to 1st Edition rules. Hope you can and want to help

Me and another player are at Normal Relations, I entered his system, he generated an encounter. Deep Space Scenario. So far so good.

As he does not have ANY fixed defenses in this system yet but a construction of an orbital shipyard (halfway through) - I would prefer to force him into a defensive scenario. I would get +2 on my surprise roll and such. Can I do that?

He could of course intercept but he has too few ships that where already there in the previous round, so that doesn't make sense.

Others in the group say that I cannot force him to accept a defensive scenario with him as a defender and that thus, I cannot chose to attack his construction yard in orbit. I just cannot believe this. Any help would be highly appreciated.

Can only defenders propose Defensive Scenarios?

[PaulB]

I'm not a developer, but I'll lay it out as far as I understand it:

The biggest problem is that you're at Normal Relations. At normal relations you cannot enter another person's system and attack him (specifically "generate scenarios"). In order to do that, you need a Declaration of Hostilities or a Declaration of War. Think of it like you're the leader, and you need to convince the government to sanction military action. But he can attack you, because you're in his system (likewise if he was in yours, you could attack him).

If you had a declaration of hostilities, you could attack his bases, bombard his planets, just not invade him with ground troops. Basically you could force a defensive scenario.

The one exception to this is that the other guy attacks you first. Now, the rulebook doesn't specifically define what attacking is, but I would interpret attacking not as generating a scenario, but as actually entering into combat. Basically you can attack him if he shoots at you, but you cannot go and wreck his bases just because he moves his fleet towards yours. Your government wont sanction that. He actually needs to fire which means you're already in combat, in this case a Deep Space scenario.

Once you fought a Deep Space scenario, you could then demand a Defensive scenario against his shipyards if you have any ships left.

FIXED some info

[PaulB]

Ooops. Made a mistkae in my initial post if you caught it before the edit. Multiple scenarios can be generated according to the rules so you wouldn't need to do any fancy intel stuff (which I've removed from the above post). But I think you would still need to fight that one deep space scenario before you were allowed to force a Defensive scenario with your surviving fleet.

[uhu79]

Thanks a ton, PaulB! Didn't see your edit, no - just the final version. And I have to say I can 100% agree with you. But the rules don't support this view explicitly, so I have a hard time discussing this with my fellow players

[uhu79]

I read elsewhere that people have made flowcharts of encounter resolutions already but I couldn't find this anywhere.

[PaulB]

Did you sign up for the VBAM yahoo group? There's a lot of fan-created content up there. I don't know if there are any flowcharts but you might find what you're looking for:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/VBAM/info

As for convincing your players. Reading 3.4.3.1 Normal Relations.

"If any of your Forces in a system are attacked by a power at normal relations with you, all of your Forces in that system may generate scenarios or attack that power's Forces in system for this campaign turn"

That seems pretty explicit.

[uhu79]

Great thx, Paul!

Yeah the stuff with generating scnenarios afterwards is not the issue. The issue is that it says nowhere that you can FORCE someone into a defensive scnenario. My fellow players say that the one proposing the defensive scenario is always becoming the defender even if I am the invader of the system.

I think that doesn't make sense at all but I cannot quote any rule-text that supports my understanding.

[uhu79]

Once you fought a Deep Space scenario, you could then demand a Defensive scenario against his shipyards if you have any ships left.

Oh, and I forgot to ask a fundamental thing here. If I demand a Defensive Scenario against his shipyards I will be the attacker and get +2 on the suprise roll and he will be the defender? That's at least how I see it.

[PaulB]

Great thx, Paul!

Yeah the stuff with generating scnenarios afterwards is not the issue. The issue is that it says nowhere that you can FORCE someone into a defensive scnenario. My fellow players say that the one proposing the defensive scenario is always becoming the defender even if I am the invader of the system.

I think that doesn't make sense at all but I cannot quote any rule-text that supports my understanding.

Why would you be defending someone else's system?
Yeah, unfortunately for some groups VBAM doesn't spell everything out all the time.

If it helps convince them,
Defensive scenarios 3.6.3.5 say "The defensive forces can include some bases, satellites or mines to their Task Force at no command cost"

Now. under 3.5.5 Moving Other Units
It says that you can carry defsats as cargo, but "Units carried as cargo may be disembarked in a system owned by the player or an allied power."

So, if you're the defender in someone else's system, then why would it mention that you can use defsats when you can't deploy defsats in an enemy star system? And you certainly cannot build a base there.

It's not explicitly stated. But it is implicit. Just as when a fleet chooses to run away and another fleet pursues them, then the pursuers are the attackers. Because you know they're the ones actually moving to start combat.

[uhu79]

Thanks a lot for your efforts Paul, highly appreciated!
I am trying to clearly articulate my view on RAI but I can't quote RAW for that obviously.

I followed your advice with the Yahoo Group and posted a question there as well.


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Player A and Player B have signed a Declaration of Hostility.

Player A enters system of Player B. Player A has a fleet. Player B has a fleet and an orbital shipyard.

Player B demands Deep Space. He is the owner, so he goes first even if Player A has the bigger fleet (more AS). <- this bit is wrong as I know now, the one with the bigger fleet (AS) goes first in proposal, the owner choses order if order is in question

Player A refuses Deep Space and demands Defensive Scenario around the shipyard instead as he wants to both destroy the fleet and wreck the shipyard. (Player B does not have Intel on the Planet and no other Fixed Defenses so for Player A that is the best option PLUS he gets a +2 to his Surprise Roll.)

Player B could refuse this Defensive Scenario by Intercepting but only with the forces that were in the system already the round before. Let's say his fleet arrived at the same time as Player A, so he does not have Interceptors.

A Defensive Scenario takes place and this Scenario can be repeated in the same turn multiple times until one Player gives up and flees (Pursuit possible), is destroyed completely or both have enough and stop generating encounters.

That's how I interpret it. Is this correct?

[Tyrel Lohr]

Hi, Orok has already posted a question here couple days ago. We started playing not long ago. Difficult game but promising!

We're always here to help, too, to walk you through issues that arise! And VBAM is definitely a game where while we try to spell out as much of the rules as possible, every group ends up home ruling things to their own preference. One of the biggest goals for 2E was trying to nail down some of these open or vague situations, though.

Me and another player are at Normal Relations, I entered his system, he generated an encounter. Deep Space Scenario. So far so good.

Yes, I double checked and this is right. At Normal Relations you couldn't have attacked him in the system he controlled, but he CAN attack YOU.

As he does not have ANY fixed defenses in this system yet but a construction of an orbital shipyard (halfway through) - I would prefer to force him into a defensive scenario. I would get +2 on my surprise roll and such. Can I do that?

Rereading the rules, you can't generate space combat scenarios against him because you are in a system he controls and are at Normal Relations. So you couldn't force a Defensive scenario against him. He could choose to demand one against you for some reason, but I'm not sure why he would do that in this case.

As per the YahooGroup, the +2 surprise bonus is for the player attacking the system owner and represents that they are at least somewhat prepared for the attack.

Others in the group say that I cannot force him to accept a defensive scenario with him as a defender and that thus, I cannot chose to attack his construction yard in orbit. I just cannot believe this. Any help would be highly appreciated.

At Normal Relations you cannot demand any scenarios in a system he controls. If you had a declaration of hostilities or war, then you could do so. If you were in a more dire state of relations, then you could demand a Defensive scenario against him.

2E makes the diplomacy a bit more straightforward by making it a linear progression as follows: War > Non-Intercourse > Non-Aggression > Trade > Mutual Defense > Alliance. At War you are unrestricted in your warfare, at Non-Intercourse you can attack them but can't bombard or invade systems they control, and at Non-Aggression and above you can't attack them at all. This made it easier to keep track of who could attack what compared to 1E.

[Orok]

Others in the group say that I cannot force him to accept a defensive scenario with him as a defender and that thus, I cannot chose to attack his construction yard in orbit. I just cannot believe this. Any help would be highly appreciated.

At Normal Relations you cannot demand any scenarios in a system he controls. If you had a declaration of hostilities or war, then you could do so. If you were in a more dire state of relations, then you could demand a Defensive scenario against him.

Uhu described the situation a little bit wrong. Yes he can offer a defensive scenario (ignoring the diplomatic matter now), but the defender can deny it.
Source:
Page 49 after "If any fleet demands that a..."

[Tyrel Lohr]

Uhu described the situation a little bit wrong. Yes he can offer a defensive scenario (ignoring the diplomatic matter now), but the defender can deny it.
Source:
Page 49 after "If any fleet demands that a..."

That section is ambiguously written, and I can see where it is a major point of issue with this situation. This is also the only section that says that Interceptions are a consequence of refusing a Defensive scenario, which is something I hadn't really realized until part way into 2E when I was going back over the 1E rules again with a fine tooth comb.

We're going to have to revise this all to make it clear, but in 2E the way that we addressed this problem is that a Defensive scenario cannot really be refused. The system owner (defender) can choose to withdraw some or all of his fleet (at which point the attacker could chase after them with a Pursuit scenario) but the Defensive scenario is always going to happen if the attacker is demanding it.

If the defender is demanding a Defensive scenario, then the attacker can refuse and then choose to either retreat from the system or else stay and try to establish a blockade.

Defensive scenarios are just messy and I wish there was a better way to flowchart this out. But the 1E system is really messy. In that case, if either side refuses the Defensive scenario then an Interception would occur, but I think then the defender would need to cripple/destroy all units in the opposing task force in order to keep them from generating a Defensive scenario anyway. Which is part of the reason I eliminated Interceptions in 2E because they didn't seem to fit the flow of encounter generation very well.