Nomadic Races

Playtesting & Rules Development
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murtalianconfederacy
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Nomadic Races

Post by murtalianconfederacy »

Hi all.

Over the last few days, Tyrel and I have been having a conversation regarding nomadic races. I came up with a few ideas to allow nomadic races into a campaign, and Tyrel came up with ways to refine it, and we've both decided to give you an idea of what we've got, to see if any of you have any ideas...
I said:

The Fabrication Bay is just like a medical bay, and has no value in a
purely tactical game. But one Fabrication Bay is not enough--for use in
VBAM campaigns, you require 10 Fabrication Bays to achieve one level of
Fabrication. Fabrication (10) enables one level of Productivity to be
used.

Tyrel said:

Would it be worth combining the Fabrication ability with the existing Mobile
Construction ability and creating a new, consolidated Construction ability?
Then you could have one construction capacity equal to Construction rating,
and maybe limit the number of dock spaces to DV divided by 2 (round up)? The
old Mobile Construction maximum should still be included somehow, so that
the nomadic/mobile Construction units can't build enormous starships all by
themselves. It would probably be sufficient to just say they can't build a
unit that costs more than their Construction rating.

Given those states, a Construction (10) unit with DV 7 could spend up to 10
EP on units, and would have a total of 4 dock spaces available. So it could
build some 2 EP corvettes/gunboats each turn, or a whole horde of fighters.

I said:

The Ore Extraction Unit is a catchall term for mining shuttles, processors
and the like. It takes up 100 SUs and has no value in a S:X game.

Tyrel said:

Extraction is probably a better term than the "Remote Mining" I had bandied
around in my mind. One-word or easily abbreviated names work best for these
abilities.

As for how it works, would it be best to say that 10 Extraction rating would
be equal to 1 Productivity? I think you would almost want to handle
fractional Productivity from Extraction units though, too, so that a handful
of surviving Extraction units could still pull resources out of a high RAW
planet.

My changes above shift the Productivity to Extraction units, and then leave
the Fabrication/Construction units to do the actual building.

I am worried that the Extraction efficiency may need to be increased to 5:1
for Extraction rating to Productivity provided in order to make it cost
effective. An average set of Extraction units should be able to pull enough
income from a RAW 2 world to cover their maintenance cost plus 1 EP extra to
pay towards upkeep or construction of other units. 5:1 works better for that
than 10:1. At 5:1, you could have 5 frigate-sized mining ships with a 1/6
maintenance cost pulling in 2 EP from the planet.

The next problem is whether nomadic income, or income from Extraction units
otherwise, should ever be halved during Peacetime. I don't think it should
be halved for nomads, as they need all of the income they can get. For
non-nomads, though, you don't want them to abuse the rules to be able to
effectively get full production simply by putting cheap mining units
everywhere.

A possible solution to that problem would be to require 1 Census per
Productivity point provided by Extraction units. Most normal powers wouldn't
bother with building ships with enough Passenger rating to move Census, or
want to jeopardize them by ferrying them around aboard ships. That would
effectively limit the use to true nomads. It would also make nomad
populations very valuable.

I said:

Now that sounds like a good idea, and would allow many vessels with the
capacity to place one Extraction unit onboard to utilise the RAW and
generate EPs.

Tyrel said:

That's the idea. That way you could have small remote mining ships, the type
of which might be owned by a small independent mining firm; or you could
have the enormous "world strippers" of the nomadic fleets that have the
Extraction potential to act as a Productivity point all on their own.

I said:

That was my intention when conceiving of a single ship like the ship in
the novel Unto Leviathan, which was a massive colony ship. But I like the
idea. So what do you think? Good idea or not?

Tyrel said:

I think the concept is sound, and after thinking about it some more I think
the perfect balance is 5 Extraction = 1 Productivity, with a max equal to
system Carrying Capacity. You just need 1 Census in the system to utilize
that Productivity in order to generate the income to then spend aboard
Construction vessels to make purchases.

Under those rules, a single large "mothership" unit could carry Census,
Construction and Extraction equipment and be more or less self-sustaining.
So, what do you think? I've included the relevant parts of the emails to allow you to see where we started
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Post by mriddle »

I would think nomads would want to use the strip mining rules as well
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Post by andstrauss »

"Colony Fleets" will keep Census in space while these Fabrication and Extraction ships/fleets will be related to Productivity, limited by Census. Is that it?

I think it's a good idea. Does it also represents remote mining? A fleet of civvie ships that effectively transport a RAW out of a planet to a place where there's production? Possibly in-system craft only, no jump capable ones.

What about :
"Housing Fleet" - can carry 1 Census
"Fabrication Fleet" - can carry 1 productivity
"Extraction Fleet" - Can transport 1 RAW from a nearby planet/system to the Fabrication Fleet for output. Actually the Extraction fleet is a multiplier, as RAW is a multiplier, so you'll need 1 Extraction Fleet for every Fabrication Fleet, range maybe limiting.

As these are civvies, they should not have any maintenance cost or a very low one, like maintenance as robots.

I'm just writing what comes on my mind.

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Post by MarkG88 »

Interesting topic and a way to portray the Battlestar Galactica (BSG) "rag-tag fleet" at some point hehe.
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Post by Bandit »

I covered some of this in my own BSG conversions and in the Tech Book draft.

I think the big concern and reservations I have is how Nomadic race rules would be utilzed in a normal campaign. I can quickly see an non-nomadic race trying to capture nomadic ships just so they could have mobile productivity and RAW extractors.

It may be a good idea to have a nomadic racial trait.
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Post by MarkG88 »

Bandit wrote:I covered some of this in my own BSG conversions and in the Tech Book draft.

I think the big concern and reservations I have is how Nomadic race rules would be utilzed in a normal campaign. I can quickly see an non-nomadic race trying to capture nomadic ships just so they could have mobile productivity and RAW extractors.

It may be a good idea to have a nomadic racial trait.
I agree Bandit, in normal campaign a racial trait would be the way to go.
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Post by jygro »

when I first saw this, I was thinking Homeworld and not BSG. I guess if the mothership is a very large DV, high EP cost ship that the rules above are sound.

I would say that the 'basic' starting nomad fleet has to be able to generate comparable EP of that of a starting non-nomad race if they are going to be playable with non-nomad races (so if a normal race can generate ~20 EP from their homeworld after expenses, the nomad race should be able to do that as well - after all expenses).

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Post by Bandit »

I was thinking along the lines of BSG, Homeworld, Ithorians and the Covenant from HALO. :D
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Post by mriddle »

Was there any consideration of whether of transport limits of EPs ?

ie one of the simplifications of VBAM is that EPs get moved/stored for free. While this seems ok for planet based empires, nomadic empires seem "unrealistic".. One Nomad fleet "carrying" 100 "banked" EP for example.
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Post by MarkG88 »

mriddle wrote:Was there any consideration of whether of transport limits of EPs ?

ie one of the simplifications of VBAM is that EPs get moved/stored for free. While this seems ok for planet based empires, nomadic empires seem "unrealistic".. One Nomad fleet "carrying" 100 "banked" EP for example.
Yeah without a permanent infrastructure based on a permanent system/planet they'd pretty much have to consume what the produced with strict limits for storage like you noted.
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Post by Chyll »

BSG came up a fair bit at a convention held her this weekend - starship mini battles and board games played a few times.

It prompted my thoughts on this topic, particularly as I have a Galactica, a swarm of vipers, and a rag-tag fleet of tabletop minis...

==

Which led to specific thoughts along the lines of:
Would nomadic mining strictly be a matter of build X capacity and mine away? Or would the max possible be an issue of system richness - i.e., easily exploitable?

Its my way of suggesting that a fleet may have the capability but finds a poor system that its harder to extract so less, or even no, potential gain.... versus a rich system that is easily extractable. You'd almost need another calculation or system trait. ugh. I can't quite wrap my head around it.



The other questions here already point out the general balancing issues with this ability. In a dedicated BSG emulator campaign, for instance, probably not an issue. For a general campaign it could cause problems.
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Post by logan400k »

A few points that were in my head that I just wanted to throw out there.

1. People become Nomadic, why? Out of need to follow resources; to escape destruction / oppression; as a means of expansion; the Locust Effect; Wanderlust. The rules would need to take into account the why I believe as that answers a few questions right there.
A. Follow Resources: There are not herds of space goats that accidentally fall down hyperspace lines between systems nor require more grazing area. However, there could be a type of gas in certain gas giants or certain kinds of radiation given off by certain kinds of suns that force a people to travel the stars to maintain their current lifestyle. These people might actually be able to settle down somewhere if they wanted to.
B. Escape Destruction / Oppression: BSG is a good example of this, there is also a race from Starfire's Alkelda Dawn and First Contact supplements (long out of print I think) that had to boogie on out or be destroyed. The Dilgar from B5Wars did not become nomads per se but their suns was going to explode.
C. Technically this is all normal races. They have a home base but send out their nomadic forces to subjugate others or take resources. Would the Mongols be an example of this? They created large empires but could considered a nomadic type of people. There is a distinction there but it might be too much a splitting of hairs to make a difference rules wise.
D. The Locust Effect: Perhaps the way that they use resources OR the kinds of resources they use require constant movement. This is related to #1 in some ways. What about a race that fed on other sentients almost exclusively? Empty systems would be nigh useless to them outside of building new ships.
E. Wanderlust: Maybe they left their homeworld on a journey they hope never ends. This sort of race would never settle down.

2. Nomadic Tech, an issue? Well no, not really. Anyone could have used what the Huns or Mongols or any such group used in their nomadic travels. The tech was possible. Its the same with space nomadic tech. Yes most people do not need to build it but most people could. Essentially add thrusters to your space factories and there you go. Clearly though, adding the possibility of the Nomadic Tech line to a campaign would not be a casual decision.

3. Game Mechanics: I do not see these as being that big an issue. Would there even need to be a major overhaul of rules? The only one I can think of is having certain ships or fleets rated for Census, RAW, and Productivity Just as if they were a planet of some sort. The numbers should be substantially lower and various ships / fleets would need to combine to build larger structures and units. Otherwise you have mobile productivity and thats about the only change.

4. Game Balance: Many nomads escaping the destruction of their world / empire would be in straights. Others who choose the lifestyle might be immensely powerful. That is where I see the potential for it not being fun to have such a race in the game. Either they get clobbered by the first non-player entity or player they encounter or they gobbled up everyone and become immensely powerful and mobile machines of death. A group not hindered by the need to create fixed defense might potentially be fairly powerful.

5. Scenario. One Scenario that could work is where all players are Nomads. In this way they move along until they find a suitable home world (if ever) and that would balance out the game. In Rome Total War, Barbarian Invasion (computer war game) you can play as a nomad and you have immense armies but when you grab a home city, over time those armies dissipate to become your peasants. Such a mechanic might be put into place for nomadic race, where if a world is colonized there is automatic census relocation, and this would cause crew issues in the fleet etc...

Really just a bunch of thoughts...
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Post by terryoc »

Jindarians from the Star Fleet Universe would fit the nomadic empire type; they live in asteroid fields, and have some ships that are disguised as asteroids. More of a wandering nuisance than an empire, you could simulate their activities by reducing the number of EPs produced by a system with a Jindarian infestation.
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