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I have looked through the tech list and I like the variety implied by the list ("Energy Webs" which vaguely remind me of the tech belonging to certain crystalline aliens I saw on some TV show somewhere ). However I was wondering if the tech will be limited to ship tech, or will there be colony tech as well.
For instance "Arcology: increases the Carrying Capacity of a planet by one, Cost: 10 X CC". Or something like the Orbital Colony cylinders from "The Jovian Chronicles".
The above is just an example, but I am interested to know if such things will be included. If not in the Campaign Moderators Companion, then in the Engineering Manual.

Yes, I noticed that I still had Energy Webs in that document, and your intimation of their source is quite correct

My plan is to include as many non-combat techs as possible. There is Cloning that allows players to directly purchase Census using economic points, and the Virtual Reality (might get renamed Alien Entertainment) that allows Morale to be purchased with economic points, too.

All of the orbital infrastructure concepts that Charlie created for Jovian Chronicles will be ported over into 2E. Even better, 2E actually has a Orbital system stat that can be used to determine how many orbital facilities can be built in each system.

Over my working retreat into the mountains I go to thinking about the 2E tech system and trying to decide whether or not all of the special technologies should be moved to the Engineering Manual. On one hand there are several special technologies that almost have to be in the Campaign Guide to cover the abilities of your most prominent sci-fi empires (cloaking devices, anyone?), but I worry that the number of key abilities that would be included in the CG would be so limited as to making special ability research limited if not unnecessary. Just because many of the non-standard special abilities are mandatory for certain settings they will probably stay in the main book and just be included and expanded upon in the Engineering Manual.

What I *have* decided beyond a shadow of a doubt is that I am going to start combining all of my tech ideas into a single Engineering draft and make that publicly available for comment and playtest. That way we can refine the concepts and get them polished and ready for their final compilation into the final supplement.

Glad to hear that the tech system will be robust and varied.
One question about the orbital stat though. When using the advanced system generation rules will each planet or asteroid belt get its own Orbital stat? I ask because I have always been a fan of the orbital colony concept and love the idea of a game that takes them into account.
2E is sounding more and more like the game I have always wanted ever since Starfire came out.

[quote="aelius"One question about the orbital stat though. When using the advanced system generation rules will each planet or asteroid belt get its own Orbital stat? I ask because I have always been a fan of the orbital colony concept and love the idea of a game that takes them into account.
2E is sounding more and more like the game I have always wanted ever since Starfire came out. [/quote]

The multi-planet star systems rules will work much like those from the 1E Companion, with the stats currently being applied to star systems being almost universally extended to the various planets, asteroids, or other bodies you might find in a star system. Jump Lanes will remain a system-level entity, with all planets in the system having the same Jump Lane value; but everything else is going to be on a planet-by-planet basis.

Given the assumption that the orbital colonies and habitats will end up using the Orbital stat for capacity (very good possibility, though the rules still need reconciled to the newer 2E draft), then asteroid belts will probably have high RAW and Orbital stats, but little or no Carrying Capacity, Biosphere, or Science. In fact, it would make sense for asteroid belts to have 0 Carrying Capacity because my idea was to have planets that rolled too low on Carrying Capacity to become asteroid belts in the first place in the multi-planet rules. That leaves asteroid belts as a place that can't be colonized, per se, but a player can still build orbital colonies or asteroid mining bases there to extract their resources.

Along similar lines, orbital siphoning stations could be established at gas giants to earn some extra money. Similarly, hydrogen life forms could consider gas giants to have a total Carrying Capacity equal to their Carrying Capacity plus Orbital. This solves one problem I had pre-Orbital finding a good way to give the hydrogen life forms their Capacity bonus without being too arbitrary about it.

Planets will also receive modifiers to their basic 2D6-style stat rolls based on their planet type and the type of star they orbit. Earth-like planets will tend to have higher Biosphere values, for example, and planets orbiting hot young blue stars will have less Carrying Capacity and Biosphere but a bonus to their RAW rolls. Similarly, I'll be using star size and number of companion stars as a modifier to the number of jump lanes that connect to a system. While on vacation I also came upon an obvious way to add an extra 4 jump lane connection options to a hex-based map (along the hex spines and out two hexes away), so you can expect to see some of the largest supergiant or hypergiant systems having up to 10 jump lanes connecting to it. At least if it pans out -- otherwise they will just tend to have the full 6 jump lanes every time.

This just gets better and better...
Now I am sooo looking forward to this.
If your using the JC rules for orbital infrastructure you could also build Productivity stations to get economic points and then add shipyards and asteroid belts could become valuable shipbuilding centers.

The whole notion of orbital structures as presented in Jovian Chronicles would have to be carefully re-thought for balance purposes in a more general game of VBAM.

That said, it's something that should be done at some point, whether in the core rules or as an expansion down the road at some point.

Charles Lewis wrote:The whole notion of orbital structures as presented in Jovian Chronicles would have to be carefully re-thought for balance purposes in a more general game of VBAM.

That said, it's something that should be done at some point, whether in the core rules or as an expansion down the road at some point.

I am all for it. High frontier settings are a favorite of mine and I like the idea of being able to use those tropes in my campaign.
I realize they would need to be carefully balanced, but the fact that they are more expensive than setting up shop on a planet would help to balance the fact that you could put more Census and Infrastructure in a given system.

In their current incarnation how would you model a separate tech level for each system?

Emiricol wrote:In their current incarnation how would you model a separate tech level for each system?

I'm not through the entire draft yet, but I was wondering the same thing, and was playing around with some ideas. Another problem I see is that it doesn't matter WHEN you get that shiny new special tech, as long as 2 empires are the same TL, it is just as effective and small if you got it 1 TL advance ago or 40 TL advances ago.

Alternative Tech System
My alternative system would still advance all Techs with the Empire Tech Level (XTL), you would just have to track what your XTL was when you achieved that technology (the Technology Tech Level or TTL).
Tech Level Term
XTL = Empire Tech Level
CTL = Class Tech Level (this can be different than the XTL per x.x.x.x Unit Class Design)
TTL = Technology Tech Level (XTL when that Technology was achieved)
ETL = Effective Tech Level (usually CTL - TTL)

With my alternative, Construction Cost * 2 is the mass of the ship (dropping the tech modifier at this point).

Each tech item (i.e. DV, AS, FTL, Boarding, etc.), has it's own Technology TL, which is subtracted from the ship's Class Tech Level (CTL) to get the Effective Tech Level (ETL). For example, lets say your empire is at TL 10, and you have had DV, AS, PD, CR & FTL since TL 0. In this case the Effective Tech Level is 10 (Class TL) - 0 (Tech TL) to give an ETL of 10. Now let's say that you got Electronic Warfare at TL 5, this would give EW an Effective TL of 5 (10 - 5).

Now, to add a unit of a tech, you would take the base cost (in the case of DV, AS, PD, CR & EW, it would be 1) and divide by the Tech Adjustment (1 + (0.1 x Effective Tech Level)), rounding normally to 2 decimals. So, from the example above, DV, AS, PD & CR would be 1 / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 0.50 and EW would come out to 1 / (1 + (0.1 x 5)) = .67.

To get Maintenance Cost, you would then add up all of the mass of the units you installed, divide by 10 and multiply by the Class Tech Adjustment (1 + (0.1 x Class Tech Level)).

So for our example, lets look at a 5 Construction Cost Frigate at CTL 10, with DV, AS, PD, CR & FTL of Tech TL 0 and Electronic Warfare Tech TL of 5.
Mass Units = 5 x 2 = 10
Let's add the following
5 DV (ETL 10) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.50 mass
5 AS (ETL 10) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.50 mass
4 PD (ETL 10) = (4 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.00 mass
2 CR (ETL 10) = (2 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 1.00 mass
1 FTL (ETL 10) = (1 x (0.5 * 5)) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 1.25 mass
1 EW (ETL 5) = (1 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 5)) = 0.67 mass
This adds up to 9.92 mass
So, Maintenance Cost = (9.92 / 10) * (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 1.984, rounded to 2.0

With the system in the book, you would get the following
Mass Units = (5 x 2) x (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 20 Mass units
5 DV = 5 x 1 = 5 mass
5 AS = 5 x 1 = 5 mass
4 PD = 4 x 1 = 4 mass
2 CR = 2 x 1 = 2 mass
1 FTL = 1 x (0.5 x 5) = 2.5 mass
1 EW = 1 x 1 = 1 mass (THIS is the difference in the systems)
This adds up to 9.5 mass, so lets squeeze in 1 point of Armor (1 x 0.5) = 0.5 mass for a total of 10 mass used.
Maintenance Cost = 20 / 10 = 2.0
Because the EW was not adjusted for when the technology was purchased, it allowed the extra mass for 1 point of armor that the TL adjusted ship did not have room for.

The book version is definitely much easier to figure out with a pencil and paper, but most of us will probably be using spreadsheets to design our ships. Since the book version applies the TL to the mass of the vessel, there is no way to differentiate an empire who has had Electronics Warfare since TL 5 from the Empire that JUST got the tech.

Just for grins and giggles, lets look at this same ship (alternative rules) where the empire achieved ETL 10, then achieved the Electronics Warfare special Tech.
In this example, we have a 5 Construction Cost Frigate at Class TL 10, with DV, AS, PD, CR & FTL of Tech TL 0 and Electronic Warfare Tech TL of 10.
Mass Units = 5 x 2 = 10
Let's add the following
5 DV (ETL 10) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.50 mass
5 AS (ETL 10) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.50 mass
4 PD (ETL 10) = (4 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.00 mass
2 CR (ETL 10) = (2 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 1.00 mass
1 FTL (ETL 10) = (1 x (0.5 * 5)) / (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 1.25 mass
1 EW (ETL 0) = (1 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 0)) = 1.00 mass
This adds up to 10.25 mass, which is too much, so we have to cut something. Cutting DV back to 4 saves us 0.5 mass, giving us a total mass used of 9.75, which would allow 1 point of TTL 0 armor to be added, bringing the total mass used up to 10.00
So, Maintenance Cost = (10.00 / 10) * (1 + (0.1 x 10)) = 2.00.

As you can see this does show the effects of when you actually achieve a special tech, and differentiates Empires even further. As a limitation, I would also suggest that a special tech could be researched no more that once every 5 Tech Levels, to keep every body from researching special techs at the beginning and making empires even more differentiated technologically.

So, here we can see the examples of these different ships:
Current Book design
CC 5 Frigate (DV 5, AS 5, PD 4, CR 2, FTL 1, EW 1, Armor 1), Maint 2.0 (0 mass remaining)
Alternate design (EW TTL 5)
CC 5 Frigate (DV 5, AS 5, PD 4, CR 2, FTL 1, EW 1), Maint 2.0 (0.08 mass remaining)
Alternate design (EW TTL 10)
CC 5 Frigate (DV 4, AS 5, PD 4, CR 2, FTL 1, EW 1, Armor 1), Maint 2.0 (0 mass remaining)

I can't comment on the costs, being not yet thoroughly familiarized with the 2E draft, but the idea of tracking TTL interests me greatly. Having one Power with cheap DV but less advanced AS compared to another Power with equal empire TL sounds good to me.

I don't know - the real impact of this is lost on me. The net effect in this example is to trade a point of DV for Armour 1. And during the game...aren't players going to want to spend Tech points on upgrading individual technologies, in effect pushing back the origin date of the tech? An item for a later supplement, surely?

Cheers
Mark

I like the core concept behind this, but there is a problem in that the core combat factors are always available so the only thing it would be able to apply to would be special technologies. But a very similar system where empires receive bonuses to tech levels in specific research fields and then use those to determine effective tech level should work fine, and would use essentially the same rules as nimrodd presented. The difference is that you would gain levels in (names tentative) Construction, Propulsion, Offensive Weapons, Defensive Weapons, Electronics, and Basing. Each combat factor and special ability would then be assigned to one of these research fields. That way an empire could be at TL+14, but might have +4 Construction and +2 Propulsion, giving it an effective TL+18 and TL+16, respectively, in these research fields.

The trick then is to figure out the best way to allow tech specialization by research field. The best option may be to allow an empire to pick a research field to receive a +1 bonus whenever it increases its tech level. That way over 20 tech level increases you would have a total of +20 spread between your research fields. You could dump all of them into a single research field, like Offensive Weapons for the AS bonus, or spread them around to make your forces a bit more well-rounded.

MarkNorfolk wrote:I don't know - the real impact of this is lost on me. The net effect in this example is to trade a point of DV for Armour 1. And during the game...aren't players going to want to spend Tech points on upgrading individual technologies, in effect pushing back the origin date of the tech?

What I am trying to do is make the different Empire's fleets different.

Let's look at a more extreme example
Empire 1 got EW at TTL 5 and Empire 2 got EW at TTL 35. Both are designing a 5 C$ ship at CTL40.

Empire 1
Ship Mass = C$ 5 x 2 = 10 mass
11 DV (ETL 40) = (11 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.20 mass
10 AS (ETL 40) = (10 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.00 mass
10 PD (ETL 40) = (10 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.00 mass
5 CR (ETL 40) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 1.00 mass
1 FTL (ETL 40) = (1 x (0.5 x 5)) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 0.50 mass
10 EW (ETL 35) = (10 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 35)) = 2.22 mass
This adds up to 9.92 mass
So, Maintenance Cost = (9.92 / 10) * (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 4.96, rounded to 5.0

Empire 2
Ship Mass = C$ 5 x 2 = 10 mass
11 DV (ETL 40) = (11 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.20 mass
10 AS (ETL 40) = (10 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.00 mass
10 PD (ETL 40) = (10 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 2.00 mass
5 CR (ETL 40) = (5 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 1.00 mass
1 FTL (ETL 40) = (1 x (0.5 x 5)) / (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 0.50 mass
3 EW (ETL 5) = (3 x 1) / (1 + (0.1 x 5)) = 2.00 mass
This adds up to 9.7 mass
So, Maintenance Cost = (9.70 / 10) * (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 4.85, rounded to 4.9

So here are the 2 ships side by side
Empire 1 CC5 Frigate (DV 11, AS 10, PD 10, CR 5, FTL 1, EW 10), Maint 5.0
Empire 2 CC5 Frigate (DV 11, AS 10, PD 10, CR 5, FTL 1, EW 3), Maint 4.9

As I said, a more extreme example. Because Empire 2 got EW 30 TLs after Empire 1, their EW equipment takes up more space in their ship, than it does on the Empire 1 ship. Empire 2 was probably concentrating on getting other Special Tech as time went along, and only recently got EW.

Now lets look at these ships from the Book version
Empire 1
Ship Mass = C$ 5 x 2 x (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 50 mass
12 DV = 12 x 1 = 12 mass
10 AS = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
10 PD = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
5 CR = 5 x 1 = 5 mass
1 FTL = 1 x (0.5 x 5) = 2.5 mass
10 EW = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
This adds up to 49.5 mass
So, Maintenance Cost = 49.5 / 10 = 4.95, rounded to 5.0

Empire 2
Ship Mass = C$ 5 x 2 x (1 + (0.1 x 40)) = 50 mass
12 DV = 12 x 1 = 12 mass
10 AS = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
10 PD = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
5 CR = 5 x 1 = 5 mass
1 FTL = 1 x (0.5 x 5) = 2.5 mass
10 EW = 10 x 1 = 10 mass
This adds up to 49.5 mass
So, Maintenance Cost = 49.5 / 10 = 4.95, rounded to 5.0

So here are the 2 ships side by side
Empire 1 CC5 Frigate (DV 12, AS 10, PD 10, CR 5, FTL 1, EW 10), Maint 5.0
Empire 2 CC5 Frigate (DV 12, AS 10, PD 10, CR 5, FTL 1, EW 10), Maint 5.0

No differences even though Empire 2 got EW 30 TLs after Empire 1.

That is why I would like to move the Tech Level calculation to the item side (as opposed to the body of the ship) and tracking individual Tech Tech Levels (TTL).

Nimrodd,

There is something about this that I really like. I mean I like the concept a LOT. But I worry about it being integrated into 2E base rules as it adds a little more 'math' into the equation. And too much of that 4-letter word will scare some peeps away. Still, dang, I really like your concept of tech levels a LOT.

Okay now I see. Interesting, although I agree that the math is a extra burden so it's one for a supplemental book. I'm afraid my personal interest is muted as I'll probably never use the Tech rules.

Cheers
Mark