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Okay, here is the first in what might be a burst of questions relating to the final disposition of the VBAM 2E rules.

The question is simple: should empires be allowed to move Census between colonies. Currently an empire can't move any of its other colony statistics (Morale, Productivity, Shipyards, Agriculture, Tech, Intel, or Supply) from one place to another.

The argument in favor of being able to move Census is that, unlike the other colony statistics, Census represents actual people that can be loaded aboard transports and moved. The other statistics either represent intangible ideas (Morale) or physical infrastructure (the rest) that can't be so readily transported.

However, the logistics of moving Census is sometimes nonsensical because the population levels that Census represents are not linear but exponential. Allowing Census to be moved is also not consistent with the rest of the colony statistic rules, although there are enough other differences between the population and infrastructure stats to argue that they are already enough inconsistencies in how the two are handled so as to render that point moot.

As an additional part to this question, if you don't think Census should be able to be moved, do you prefer a fixed cost for the Census or, to remain consistent with other infrastructure types, have the cost be equal to 10 times the new value. To be clear, this Census cost will be paid using population growth points (PGP) from the Population Pool, not economic points.

-Tyrel

I chose "No, with variable cost", but I do so with one caveat. I think that under these circumstances, a Colony Fleet, should be allowed to be purchased, which includes one Census. This Colony Fleet should only be purchasable from a colony of 6 or higher (if Homeworld is 10+ census), and should also be a negative penalty for the turn to Population Growth Points.

This would limit the purchasing to worlds that could create the census, without depleting their own current census, but would have a penalty (aside from the economic cost) to keep players from creating massive amounts of colony fleets.

Also limiting the use here to being only for the initial colonization, not increasing a current colony.

An alternative would be to say that one Colony Fleet is equal to 10 Population Growth Points, so that you could allow multiple colony fleets to increase a colony above 1 Census. This should require a bigger penalty to the Population Pool.

I like these ideas.

Colonization has been vastly simplified in 2E so that you don't actually build colony ships anymore; instead, you just pay the required economic cost to establish the new colony. From the last round of edits, it costs you 50 x Habitability Modifier to colonize a planet, and you can only colonize planets in Claimed or Controlled systems that are located within your sphere of influence. In other words, you can colonize any planet whose distance from one of your existing colonies is less than or equal to the colony's Supply stat value.

While this setup means that it is no longer possible to find and eliminate colony fleet and you can't colonize outside of your sphere of influence, it also eliminate the need to track and babysit civilian fleets. It is assumed that if you have the money and the system is already in your sphere that you can say that you colonized it and just be done with it.

If we go with the "No, variable cost" method, then I will use the same method as with other infrastructure and have it set to 10 times the new level. This will mean playing with the population growth point accumulation to keep it from being too quick, but that is doable. Right now an empire earns 1 PGP from each Census and colony it controls each turn. If this was changed to be equal to (Census + Colonies) / 10 [RU] instead, that would slow grow suitably so that a 10 Census homeworld + 1 colony would generate 2 PGP per turn, allowing it to place a new Census at a 0 Census colony once every 5 turns, or at a 1 Census colony every 10 turns.

-Tyrel

I chose yes...but I'm thinking more along the lines of evacuation and such-like. If there is a colony in the firing line and can't be defended, moving the census to a more easily defended location makes sense, especially if they're Aku'Ultan, Borg or Gbaba. Another situation is the unification of two powers and one colony is too isolated for defence purposes or is in a very mineral-poor system--moving them to another system which is better to defend, or more profitable, also makes sense.

I voted no, but with variable costs,

Have you considered the following though:

Allow players to convert census back into PGPs, and allow PGPs to be transportable? PGPs then convert back into census as necessary,

This way the issues with transporting census fade away (and a big-census world can create lots of census 1 worlds by simply losing one census),

That said, forcible population relocation? There should be a morale cost, and many government types should not be allowed to do it. Maybe it should be a "no", but allow it as a special rule for some racial perks?

That's a good point, Gareth. The population downgrade would work much the same way as an infrastructure downgrade: returning half the normal PGP cost back to the player's Population Pool, with a limit of one downgrade at each colony per turn. That would mean that a 9 Census colony could downgrade to 8 Census and the player would receive 9 x 5 = 45 PGP back in their Population Pool that could be spent on future turns. Each population downgrade should also decrease Morale by 1. You could then have a racial trait in the Menagerie that requires the player to roll D10 against your levels in the trait; if equal to or less than this target, then the colony doesn't experience any Morale loss.

Thinking about it, I would almost be tempted to take the number of colonies out of the PGP calculation and just have it be +1 PGP per 10 Census (round up) because it is simpler to just do the Census / 10 calc on the fly.

BTW, PGP doesn't get transported -- it just gets placed into an empire's Population Pool and can then be spent directly from there. It is assumed that your civilian population can move freely within your territories, and the only real limiting factor is that you can't purchase Census at colonies that are in Rebellion, in a Contested system, or located outside your sphere of influence.

If Census can't be moved anymore, that is one less thing that you will build Cargo transports for. I am trying to think of any convincing reasons to keep Cargo around and not just split it off into a successor abilities... but I will have to think on that some more.

-Tyrel

Tyrel Lohr wrote:Thinking about it, I would almost be tempted to take the number of colonies out of the PGP calculation and just have it be +1 PGP per 10 Census (round up) because it is simpler to just do the Census / 10 calc on the fly.

Suits me, I was never totally happy with # of colonies being part of the population growth formula,

Tyrel Lohr wrote:BTW, PGP doesn't get transported -- it just gets placed into an empire's Population Pool and can then be spent directly from there. It is assumed that your civilian population can move freely within your territories, and the only real limiting factor is that you can't purchase Census at colonies that are in Rebellion, in a Contested system, or located outside your sphere of influence.

In that case would it be worth setting a cap on the PGP you can free up each turn in this way? (Perhaps a number equal to your total census per turn or 1 census' worth from any planet as a max?),

This way you can stop folks liquidating population at an astonishing rate,

You might also want to allow piracy to knock off the odd PGP point, representing losses in transit (especially if transports are being dropped) to encourage players to spend the PGP points on census,

Gareth_Perkins wrote:Suits me, I was never totally happy with # of colonies being part of the population growth formula,

It definitely makes it simpler, and reduces the number of PGP that a player has to track every turn. It also makes it so that a small 10 Census starting empire can't go crazy expanding Census at its colonies -- it will take time to hit critical mass and have enough PGP available for some real colony growth.

In that case would it be worth setting a cap on the PGP you can free up each turn in this way? (Perhaps a number equal to your total census per turn or 1 census' worth from any planet as a max?),

This way you can stop folks liquidating population at an astonishing rate,

Yes, the limit would be max 1 Census per colony per turn. That way you couldn't just liquidate the entire population of a planet that was in the path of an alien invasion forth. Given enough time you could make a good dent in it, but it would take a year to fully liquidate a homeworld-level population.

You might also want to allow piracy to knock off the odd PGP point, representing losses in transit (especially if transports are being dropped) to encourage players to spend the PGP points on census,

I had the same thought. The PGP loss is an excellent way of representing slavers abducting people to take back for sale, something that I plan on exploring the in the Underworld Empire rules. The UEs could attack a colony, steal PGP, and then add them to their own Population Pool so that they could either purchase a Census or sell them on the black market.

-Tyrel

Yay, activity!

I voted No- Fixed Census cost.

I think that at the population levels each census must represent, moving them around in VBAM time scales just isn't feasible. I much prefer the idea of using PGP to buy a colony up from census 0 (representing a few hardy pioneers) to census 1 (a well established frontier town). PGP then represent a combination of reproduction and immigration, and I think are pretty good level of abstraction for the campaign.

I prefer fixed census cost simply because it's easier to remember, and gives empires with big, well developed colonies with lots of census a growth advantage vs a less populous empire , as it should be realistically. But I'm not committed to this, for play balance or simply to match up with the rest of the infrastructure rules I could be convinced otherwise.

I also REALLY like Gareth's 'liquidate census for PGP' idea- that handles the 'mass emigration due to disaster/invasion/etc' situation PERFECTLY. That rules definitely gets my vote.

-Will

wminsing wrote:I also REALLY like Gareth's 'liquidate census for PGP' idea- that handles the 'mass emigration due to disaster/invasion/etc' situation PERFECTLY. That rules definitely gets my vote.

Just had a thought on this. This could be a roll on the random happenings during the year, or if morale tanks on a world, there could be a possibility of mass migrations and the world losing a census.

The current rules draft has a fixed Census cost (100 PGP per Census), though the cost varies by empire tech level with Census costs being higher the further you are from the Interstellar level. Fixed costs make it easy to remember the costs, and also allows you to have a bit more granularity in regards to population growth rates. A variable cost along the lines of the other infrastructure values requires an empire to earn fewer PGP each turn because you need fewer of them to buy Census. A fixed cost, though, allows you to just earn PGP = Census each turn and just work your way up to that fixed level.

The advantage I see right now to handling Census purchases like infrastructure, just using PGP instead of EP for increases, is that it is consistent with the rest of the colony rules -- especially in regards to having the same upgrade/downgrade mechanic. For that reason alone I am thinking that we could end up having a fixed Census cost rule as an option and the variable one as the default. This would be similar to Jay's fixed 50 EP cost for Productivity in 1E.

As for random events, I will start a new thread on that so we can begin discussing the ramifications of those rules on the new edition.

-Tyrel

Ok, I can buy the variable costs- variable growth rates for different empires won't even be that hard to work in still, it's still just a bonus to your PGP generated per turn (however that is calculated).

One thing I'd make clear in the rules though is that Census represents a non-linear # of people. So Census 4 isn't twice as much people as Census 2 - it's something like 3 times as much (30 pgp total to buy Census 2, 100 pgp total to buy Census 4) or more. This will help stop people from complaining that VBAM doesn't follow normal population growth models.

-Will

Either way I can put a value on each PGP since we aren't moving Census around anymore.

Not being able to move Census also eliminates one extra bit of "busy work" that existed in 1E. The fact that we don't have civilian fleets at all anymore, and it is progressively looking like we won't have much need for cargo transports, either, means that players won't have to worry about ferrying things back and forth from place to place.

-Tyrel