Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

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Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

After leaving the reservation for another two week stint in real life, I was able to sit down with the rules this last week and make some modifications to the working set of rules to narrow down a few things I wanted to work on that weren't sitting well with me from my previous tests. As part of that process I started another playtest game to test the rules and see if the early game flowed better with those changes integrated. I'm currently 25 turns into that game and am to a point that I can post a campaign diary, map, and offer some comments, insights, and notes as to where things are now and what's happened to the rules since my last report. I've attached a map and campaign diary to the end of this post that you can download and take a look at.

As a caveat, most of this post was written yesterday before I ran out of time to get everything together for posting. As it is it's past midnight here and I'm starting to get a little rummy, so if things seem disjointed or don't make sense, well, join the club! :?

Research
Tech and research has been a major concern for me going into the final stretch of development. Some permutations of the tech rules have worked but allowed research to proceed too quickly. Others mitigated the effect of research and left players actively scrapping their Research infrastructure because it just wasn't going to be useful for them during the game. Finding a useful middle ground between these two extremes has taken time, but based on my current test game I think I have managed to find one.

As currently written, your tech advancement cost is equal to 50 times your total Census. The size of your imperial population is used here instead of your total income because it's too easy for a low income empire to tech if they have another power available to feed them economic points. This is still a problem using Census, too, but it's not pronounced and can be addressed by having minimum tech advancement costs.

Your colonies produce a minimum amount of tech investment each turn equal to their utilized Research values. An empire may purchase additional tech points at a colony, up to a maximum equal to 5 x Utilized Research. This sets up a situation in which Research infrastructure is still useful (free tech points) but that you may not need to build everywhere if you don't want to. Maximum tech growth will encourage you to max it out, in he same way that you'd max out Economy to earn as many economic points as you can. However, colonies with Research infrastructure can be captured by enemy forces and provide them with research data to boost their own research efforts. That means building large research bases on a hostile border is probably not going to be the best idea.

Using this research system it took my player empire about 20 turns to increase its tech level by 1. I wasn't putting much into tech each turn, and if I'd increased my tech investment rate I could have easily reached TL 1 in about 15 turns. This rate of advance is slow, but it plays well with the ship construction rates. Specifically, it means that I should be able to get a new unit prototyped and built before the next tech level increase comes along. This was a problem when my empire was teching every 10 turns.

Industry
Industry has been changed a bit in that a colony's industrial capacity is now 5 x Utilized Industry instead of Census x Utilized Industry. I discovered that I really didn't like how Industry was scaling, especially the fact that small colonies couldn't build anything. I don't mind having limited building options, but they needed some ability to build something. Now a 3 Census colony with 3 Industry would have an industrial capacity of 15. That's just enough to build a very small battlecruiser (if the system has a Shipyard), or at least perform some smaller construction jobs. Industrial capacity also just limits the total cost of military unit purchases (build or repair) that can be made at the colony each turn. The 1E extended construction rules that have been ported forward to 2E in various flavors typically put the total construction cost of units that could be simultaneously under construction in a system at a level equal to its construction capacity (more or less what industrial capacity is in 2E), but that ends up artificially slowing construction which becomes a problem when larger capital ships can take 10 turns to build.

Right now in my test campaign, my homeworld is working on a number of starship projects and my only limit is that I can only build 30 EP of units per turn. Because units in 2E cost about twice what they did in 1E, those limits mean that I can more or less build 2 heavy cruisers per turn, each of which will take about 6 turns to build. This encourages players to keep military units under construction at their planets, spending points here or there to fill out their forces in expectation of their needs later during the game.

Military Units & Unit Construction
Speaking of military units and jumping to another tangent, one change I have made to military units (and it's a minor one, but with major ramifications) is to change the Command Cost formula so that it's Build Cost (renamed construction cost - more on that later) divided by 5, round down, minimum CC 1/2. This fixes some of the issues I've run into with breakpoints in the unit construction rules. This is combined with a change to Command Rating that currently puts it at 2 x Command Cost + 2. This gives us a command factor breakdown as follows:

Escort: CR 3, CC 1/2
Light Cruiser: CR 4, CC 1
Heavy Cruiser: CR 6, CC 2
Battlecruiser: CR 8, CC 3
Battleship: CR 10, CC 4
Dreadnought: CR 12, CC 5
Superdreadnought: CR 14, CC 6

This makes wolf packs and swarm fleets more effective, and an empire with a dozen small frigates defending a single system can now better concentrate their firepower and have a better chance at surviving against larger ships. It also allows for larger fleets relative to what I was experiencing previous to this rule change. So far so good.

On economic factors, units now have Build Cost (BC), Maintenance Cost (MC), Build Time (BT), and Tech Level (TL). BC is the old construction cost, renamed to not clash with Command Cost's abbreviation, and is the economic point cost to build a unit of that type. MC is the cost to maintain a unit for an entire year, and you pay 10% of it per turn. I think it was Jimmy that was lamenting about the smaller size of the fleets in the previous build of the rules, and to address this I have adjusted MC so that it is equal to Mass divided by 5, round to nearest, minimum MC 1/2. BT is half of BC (round up), which creates interesting decisions given the new CR/CC dynamic where players can decide between wanting a bit more space or reducing their build times. TL is the tech level of the ship and determines where it can be built.

The number of mass units (MU) that a player has to spend on unit abilities is now equal to BC x 2, +10% per TL above TL 0. This seems to give a good range of values given that MU are being spent on three primary statistics (DV, AS, PD) plus special abilities.

FTL, the most common special ability, has been costed at 50% x BC (round down, minimum 1/2). This is high, but given the strategic benefits of faster ships and the rate at which extra MU becomes available at higher tech levels it is currently looking like it should work out (knock on wood). It also creates another interesting decision point when building ships: odd build costs give you cheaper FTL but higher build times due to how the numbers round.

I've also more or less committed myself to reducing the cost of Carrier, Assault, and Cargo to 1 MU, but with the stipulation that each one of these basing abilities can only carry 1 BC of units per point of value. That means that a Carrier 10 unit can carry 10 BC of flights. That might be 10 x 1 BC flights, 5 x 2 BC flights, or any other reasonable combination whose total BC is 10 or less. I've also decided to remove most of the vague launch/land rules I was working on to keep things simpler for the player. The main penalty for carriers will be the expense of maintaining all of their flights, the difficulty building and delivering replacement fighters, and the fact that flights that lose their carriers are abandoned at the end of a combat round. The last point I'm still fuzzy on and need to do some more testing.

Another special ability that I've been fuzzy on is Supply/Endurance. After going back and forth on those I've started looking at just combining them into a single Supply ability for the moment, with each point of Supply (1 MU cost) providing supplies for 1 CC of units when they're out of supply. The Endurance ability itself could then be resurrected as a cheaper version of Supply that only benefits the equipped ship and can't be shared with the rest of its accompanying units. In my current campaign this has worked well for extending the range of my 1 CC light scout cruisers. Each of them has 2 Supply and can be out of supply for 2 turns before they start taking damage.

Emerging Empires - the Iron Sky Law of Imperial Discovery
Jumping to an entirely different topic, I got a chance to put some more time into working on the "Iron Sky" new empire rule which I am currently calling "Emerging Empires". The idea is that in exploration campaigns you need a mechanism to encourage players to continue exploring so that they don't just explore a system, build it up, and then move on in a systematic fashion so as to avoid making contact with other empires. To this end I found the following solution that so far seems to work. Every turn during the Exploration Phase (which will be before Movement) you add 1% to your emerging empire chance but then subtract 1% for every jump lane explored that turn. You then roll D100% against your emerging empire chance to see if a new empire has entered play. The new empire will usually control 5 or fewer systems, but there's a wild card option that would allow it to be a bit bigger. The tech level and number of colonies that it controls are randomized but for the most part the empire will tend to be pretty close in tech to the most advanced player empire.

Based on the Iron Sky rule, I'm also looking at vastly simplifying the existing exploration empire discovery rules so that the only empires that you'll find by stumbling into a system are one system powers that will range from Pre-Industrial to barely Interstellar (TL 0). I might give a bit more variance to allow for a slightly more advanced Interstellar that just never developed FTL drive, but I have to give that some more thought and see how the charts that I have change based on the shift in focus.

Facilities
I've increased the cost of facilities to 100 EP + 10 EP per jump from the nearest capital and restored a 2 EP per turn maintenance cost for them. This makes them expensive to build and maintain, which in turn will encourage players to only build the facilities that they actually need and not just spam them all over just because they can.

Comments on the "Lost in a Sea of Stars II" Playtest
I want to make a few comments directly about the current campaign itself, and in doing so I may end up reiterating points I raised previously in this post, but it's late and I'm ready to type some rambling thoughts before I stumble ignominiously off to bed. This game started out a fairly simple, straightforward test but by the end of Sunday night it had actually found its rhythm and was becoming more than an exercise in rule testing - I was actually having fun playing it. The rule changes that I had implemented going into this game all seemed to be clicking and I had finally found a turn order format that wasn't bogging me down in details.

Probably the best changes thus far has been a gross simplification of the system loyalty and piracy checks in this game compared to previous 2E drafts. I went back to the drawing board to a degree to try and find an option that makes them provide the intended results without anywhere near as much hassle. For system loyalty checks this has boiled down to making a D10 roll for each inhabited system. On a '1' the system loses 1 Morale, on a '10' it gains 1 Morale. The morale loss window increases to '2' for Unrest and '3' for Rebellion but otherwise remains the same. Rolling for my three systems each turn takes a few seconds and there aren't any obnoxious modifiers to calculate.

Piracy checks have reverted back to a 1E style to a certain degree with a percentage chance of piracy, but I may still convert to a D10 if I think I can do it without losing granularity. The piracy chance calculation in this campaign is at a base 5% + 5% per trade route in the system. The negative modifiers are -1% per starship or flight in the system and -1% per Police value. My Sentry frigates have 1 Police value, so each Sentry gives a system -2% piracy chance. That means that it doesn't take many ships to safely police a system. It also gives a purpose for small police ships and warrant cutters, as they are more efficient in combating pirates.

Exploration is so well tested at this point that it hasn't been a problem at all. I have found a few 'bugs' in the system generation rules, namely that star systems seem to have too many jump lanes connecting to them and System Terrain results were too common. I have been tweaking those as I go and think I have the problems fixed.

One other thing that I tested here was giving my player empire 10 times their starting income in military units at the start of the game. That gave the Nova Solar Federation 300 EP of units at the start of the game. While this has been really helpful for me during the early stages of the game, I came to the conclusion while generating the Filosi Consortium that 5 times income is still a much more balanced force size. The Federation Navy is just so expansive that I really haven't had to build any new ships, when I really should have been forced to make a decision to do so at some point before getting TL 1.

Trade is something that I've reworked extensively since my previous draft, and I'm incorporating notes from different players to try and figure out the best way to approach it. In this campaign I am handling trade by having an empire have to add systems to their trade network by establishing trade routes there. The cost to establish a trade route is equal to 10 EP times the distance to the system from the nearest capital or Trading Post. Referring to the campaign map, this means that a trade route between Nova and Pacifica would cost 20 EP to setup. A player then earns 10% of the system's trade value each turn, and trade value is equal to Census x Highest Utilized Infrastructure. Nova has 7 Census and 7 Economy, so it's trade value is 49. The Federation's trade route to that system therefore earns it about 49 EP per campaign year (10 turns). Phoenix meanwhile has a trade value of 9. It cost 10 EP to build a trade route to Phoenix, and with a trade value of 9 it will take a little over a year to earn enough from trade to cover that expense. Pacifica meanwhile has a trade value of 1 and it would take 200 turns to recoup the cost of extending a trade route to the system (i.e., you just wouldn't do it).

I'm liking the feel of this change to trade, though I think the trade route cost might need to be dropped. Oh, yes, I forgot - you only pay 5 EP to build a trade route through a system you are already trading in and the Nova/Pacifica trade route would only cost 15 EP.

I think that's it for the night.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Vandervecken »

Interesting reading. Sounds good. Hopefully nothing more than a few minor tweeks will need to be made with more playtesting. Thanks for the update.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Another quick update to let people know where things are at. I've spent a few evenings and an afternoon working some more on the rules and am making forward progress. I have slightly reorganized the rules again to better fit the direction the rules have been shifting during the last edit. Campaign Maps, Star Systems, Jump Lanes, Exploration, Colonies, and Facilities are all grouped into one chapter; Empires, Diplomacy, and Intelligence are in another; etc. I've also made the final decision to shift all of the rules out of the sequence of play and into one of the chapters. The sequence of play in the second chapter will only give a breakdown of the order of operations for a turn and not go into rule specifics.

After some debate I've reintroduced the Information tech level to the Pre-Interstellar milieu. Running the unit design numbers it ended up working out slightly better with a 20%/40%/60%/80% division for mass unit modifiers compared to the 25%/50%/75% that existed without Information present. I also decided that it's ultimately beneficial to have a low tech power that can build everything short of starships to add some more diversity to the low tech empires.

Exploration is now its own sub-section in the Galaxy chapter (it was originally part of jump lanes). This was done to allow for some expansion of the rules in this section. The major addition here was a rework of the new empire discovery rules. With the integration of the Iron Sky 'emerging empires' rule I decided to have the existing new empire discovery mechanic only cover prewarp civilizations ranging in tech from Pre-Industrial to Interstellar powers that just haven't developed FTL drives. This makes the CM's life easier when setting up a game, as least I hope so. One of the biggest headaches I had in 1E was when I stumbled upon a series of advanced empires all at once. The setup time usually stalled out the game long enough that I would lose interest and give up. These changes should address that problem.

Special Encounters are also being added back into the main book. I had planned on holding these off for the Companion, but there are a few interactions between a few of the encounters and the strategic resources that I wanted to make sure that everything jived and didn't cause any problems. I also really like giving players the opportunities to find alien derelicts or ancient ruins in their games because they're just fun additions to the game. Rules for artifacts and an expanded list of encounters will be held for the Companion, however.

By the end of the weekend I hope to have the Galaxy and Economic chapters completely reintegrated and finished. I'll also make a healthy dent in the Politics and Military chapters. I have scraps of text for them that need edited together and reconciled against recent rule changes. You can expect to see at least about 10-20 page update of the campaign diary by then as I'm using it to continue testing rules and trying out things to see what works and what doesn't feel quite right.

Once the Galaxy, Political, Economic, and Military chapters are completed I'll post a draft here on the forums for players to review and play around with while I finish layout and art production for the book. We can then narrow down any revisions that need to be made to the rules and finally get this sucker released.

The one part of the rules I still am not thrilled about is Intel. I have a few more changes to the intel rules that I'm testing, but what I'm expecting at this point is to take the version that you saw from my last public update and change it slightly so that empires purchase spies at 10 EP a piece, and the spies then end up serving in place of offensive and defensive intel. This allows us to eliminate Intel infrastructure, intel points, and some extra bookkeeping. At this late stage of the game it's likely that I'll end up reconciling these concept with a mix of the last draft and the original intel rules and going ahead with that as our final solution unless any better ideas crop up in the future.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Another quick playtest report after an afternoon of playing through another ~8 turns of the game.

I still only have the two empires present, although I almost ended up generating a new prewarp civilization when the filosi found a system with 6 CAP and 6 BIO (36% chance of being inhabited already). My emerging empires chance is up to 6% per turn now, so it's only a matter of time before a third power enters play.

The game seems to move forward at a fast clip under the current rules. You have to do a bit of rolling for the loyalty and piracy checks, but it's one roll per colony and one roll per system, respectively, and those could be massively streamlined by programming a spreadsheet to do it for you.

Tech advancement might be a bit slow for most players, and I an see a PBEM game halving tech advancement costs and unit build times to make things work better for a once-per-week generation cycle. However, that being said, I think a group could play through about a turn every two days without much hassle during the early stages of the game (say, the first 30 turns). Assuming 3 turns per week that still means that a start from scratch scenario would take some time to resolve. More likely the players would just start with everything within 3 hexes explored and a certain number of colonies of the various sizes available to plop down on the map to start with at the beginning of the game.

I did have to break out the intel rules this round of play. The Federation colony at Pacifica was starting to get uppity and I had to purchase a spy there to try and run counter-insurgency missions. The mechanics for resolving success/failure are easy, and I think the old mechanic for detection will still work, but I need to figure out the best way to check if a spy lives or dies during a mission. Right now I'm looking at rolling a D10 against the mission's difficulty. A roll greater than difficulty indicates the spy survived, a roll under that and she was killed/captured. Defensive spies would probably need a chance of capturing the spies, too, and I've toyed with that entire back-and-forth replacing the normal detection rules. The defensive spy application would have to apply universally to keep it from affecting every mission, which could make it problematic in unmoderated games. Here's an example of what I might be aiming towards:

Example: A player in System A has 2 spies he is using to perform a 3 difficulty mission against System B that is 4 jumps away and has 1 defensive spy. The mission's chance of success is 2 Offensive Intel / (3 Difficulty + 4 Range + 1 Defensive Intel) = 25%. The player rolls 100% and the mission fails. This roll is more than twice or less than half the mission success chance so the mission is detected.

Next, the player rolls a D10 for each of his spies, rolling '3' and '9'. The first spy was killed/captured because the roll was less than or equal to the mission difficulty (3). The defensive spy rolls a '8' which is above the mission difficulty and results in no additional spies being captured.

The end result is that the mission failed, the mission was detected, and the defenders captured one of the spies which kills the spy and tells the target who tried to perform the mission.


Obviously this isn't perfect and I need to figure out if it breaks down on the higher difficulty missions, but I think it is a step in the right direction. The biggest flaw I can see is that spies might be too 'squishy' in this setup, and defensive spies might be too powerful with their ability to discover enemy agents. It might be better to remove the defensive component from the 'detection' roll and just have all of the active spies in a target system (capped by Carrying Capacity) make missions more difficult to perform successfully.

Prototyping rules all seem to work, even if bad rolls can make prototype development a slow process. I have a supercarrier that's been prototyping for ~6 turns and is finally under development. It's going to take 14 turns to build, too, which means it's going to be awhile before it'll be available. That's why I mentioned before that players would probably want to halve the build times in PBEM games. Games where people are meeting in person or via IM it wouldn't be a problem because you could crash through 3-5 turns in a single 1.5-2 hour session (barring major space battles or empire activation), but for games that run at a fraction of that pace it could be really brutal.

I've mentioned it before, but using a hex map to construction galaxy maps in this game is so, so much easier and straightforward than the jump maps were in 1E. Sure, you aren't going to end up with any major jump nexuses like you could before (though you could increase the max jump lanes per system to 10 if you really wanted by connecting to systems 2 hexes away along hex spines...) but the maps are much cleaner and more manageable.

I need to put in a few more turns of playtesting to know for sure, but I'm strongly tempted to drop the Census food cost to 2 food (it's currently at 3 food per Census). I'm finding Biosphere availability to be a large issue for my empires as they're having trouble generating enough to support many colonies. I'd rather Biosphere remain a rare commodity than increase its availability, which leaves decreasing food cost as the best solution. The downside to that is that every system with a Biosphere of 2+ would be self-sufficient and could generate just enough food all on its own.

It's probably easier to visualize the problem via an example. If the Nova Solar Federation colonized all ten star systems it currently know about it to their maximum Carrying Capacity they would have 58 Census. This would give them a total food cost of 174. However, at full Agriculture utilization, these ten systems could produce 128 food. That's only enough to feed 42 Census. If our food cost was 2 per Census the 128 food could instead feed 64 Census exactly, or 6 more Census than we currently have space for.

I will admit that there have been times where I've had quite a reserve of population points built up because I haven't had anywhere to put the Census because I didn't have enough economic points to colonize a new system or I didn't want to take the hit to food production and tech advancement costs. The population pool quickly winds down after a new system is colonized, however, so it might not be that big of a problem if I had earned 50% more population points.

Colonization costs might also be a bit high right now, though I am inclined to think they aren't. I'm charging 50 EP for the first jump and +10 EP per jump thereafter. Colonizing far from a capital gets expensive, but that's entirely intentional. 50 EP as the base price might be a bit high, however. I know that the high starting cost has kept me from wantonly colonizing systems that I don't really need. I might be tempted to try a flat +25 EP per jump option after a certain point to see how that works, but for right now I think I'm going to stick with what I've got. I'm not sure. The 25 EP per jump cost is very enticing and would make colonizing nearby systems something I would do just to do it, which is really something we want to encourage players to do as more colonies means more opportunities for Morale problems (yeah, I'm sadistic that way!).

I guess one less thought to pass on. I'm trying to simplify the encounters back down to make them quicker to resolve. That means trimming back some of what we were trying to do with the 2E encounter rules. Right now I'm testing a system where you roll for readiness on a system level, and the result gives you a die roll modifier. Instead of rolling D6 / 10 for things you roll D10 / 10 and have a min 1 and max 10 on a roll. I'll probably go back to having the readiness be based on a per-scenario roll, but then with a bonus for each scenario they've fought this turn (to balance things out). A surprise/detection component would then slot back in as a system level check. As part of this the Command ability (or something related to it, like Communications) would give a bonus to readiness rolls, too.

I've removed the Minor/Normal/Major breakdown for scenarios. Instead you just spend however much intensity you want on a scenario. The base scenario length is 1D6 + Intensity. Interception and Pursuit scenarios halve scenario length (round up) but give readiness bonuses to the attacker and defender, respectively. Deep Space is a straight up fight, and Defensive is the only scenario that can include starbases. A system with an active starbase cannot be invaded, so players have to clear those out before they can invade.

The squadron concept currently looks like it'll be resurrected. Every point of intensity spent allows a player to include 1 squadron in his task force. This provides another reason to spend big on high intensity scenarios: you can better concentrate your forces and maximize your point defense and attack strength relative to the enemy. The total intensity you have in an encounter is currently equal to 10% of your total Command Cost (round up). A fleet with 2 x BB [4 CC], 3 x CA [2 CC], 9 x CL [1 CC], and 13 x DD [1/2 CC] would get 10% x 29.5 = 3 intensity. One of those battleship could lead a squadron containing 10 CC of units, so 1 intensity wouldn't be enough to bring all of their forces in. The player would have to commit all of his intensity to bring in everything he's got, and the enemy would bring in an equal number of squadrons (or as close as they can get).

Poor surprise/detection results could reduce the intensity amounts, leading to certain empires being caught off guard and not being able to rally an effective defense and relay on the enemy attacking instead. I'm still working through the logistics of that and seeing which bits and pieces to keep and which to throwaway or leave for Jay to reincorporate into his Local Campaign rules for 2E.

Any questions or comments thus far? I'll post an updated campaign diary in the thread tomorrow evening for those that are interested in what's happening in the campaign.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

As promised, here is an update to the campaign diary. The last one ran up to Turn 25, this one goes to Turn 36. I have to write up the information for Turn 37, but I'm currently on Turn 38 in the game itself. So far I haven't run into any show stoppers, although I have been making a few changes here and there as I come across things that I think could be improved or adjusted to be more fun.

I added star clusters back in to system generation, although they are a neutered variety compared to what they were in previous iterations. I added them back in as a kine of counterpoint to black holes. Star cluster systems always have 2 jump lanes connecting to them and units that end there turns there earn an extra out of supply level. That makes them interesting but not too overbearing. Black holes themselves have been changed so that any unit that ends movement in the system takes a point of damage regardless of supply. This makes trying to defend a black hole a really bad idea.

Diplomacy seems to be working fairly well and I haven't had any problems there. I added a separate breaking chance for NPE to go with their offering and hostilities chances. That helps to give Integrity more of a workout and leads to a situation where unreliable NPE can't always be trusted to honor their agreements. Before you could be fairly certain that they would as long as their Aggressiveness kept them from getting too belligerent.

The altered intel rules seem to be working, though I haven't trained enough spies to really know for sure. That's a priority now that I keep having Morale issues, however. The current balance with the intel rules seem to be that spies are expensive to purchase and maintain (10 EP, 1 EP per turn maintenance) and the chance of losing them increases with mission difficulty. I've been lucky enough not to lose my active spy in Pacifica.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by virtutis.umbra »

Tyrel wrote:This might also be a good sign that I need to ratchet food costs back to 2 per Census
instead of 3, as right now the Federation can't colonize as much as I would prefer due to a
lack of food.
I like the idea of high-BIO worlds being strategically important, though, and the current dynamics seem to work out in favor of that. If the Filosi end up with a monopoly on good agricultural worlds, they could start selling food to the Novans (Novese?), or the two star nations could end up going to war over a garden world that lies on both their jump webs. Conflict is somewhat less likely if both empires are doing just fine, thanks very much, and would rather avoid a conflict.

Anyway, I think this makes it clear that there's room for some variability in the game model, which I believe is a GOOD thing - if you want a fast, high-expansion game with big fleets and rapid development/construction (but perversely decreased pressure toward conflict, at least due to growth constraints), halve the base BT/Tech costs and times, and set food per Census at 2. For a slower, more deliberatively paced game exemplifying a somewhat less hospitable galaxy (where the rarer very-lush worlds are essential to a healthy empire and thus easily become a bone of contention), set food per Census at 3 and normal (slow) BT / Tech cost. As you say, the faster pace is probably better suited to PBEM games, but the slower pace might be great for solo games or in-person groups.

Maybe the core of this idea of "parameterizing" the growth factors should make its way into the Companion.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

That's a good point, and using Orbital Farms to maximize food production at your few good worlds could hold you over until a better location can be found. You're also right that the Filosi Consortium could trade the Federation some of their food if it became too scarce. The filosi had the good luck of finding an uninhabited 6 BIO system that they'll be able to rapidly develop thanks to their population point backlog. They have a bigger problem with economic growth as their home system only produces 25 EP per turn, 14 EP after expenses.

Of course 12 systems that the Novese (I like that, virtutis!) have discovered, 3 have 3 BIO (Aurora, Pacifica, Sheshano) and 1 has 5 BIO (Nova). I desperately need to find a garden world for agricultural development, but as is I am producing 9 excess food per turn. Building an Orbital Farm in Nova would increase that to 16 food per turn at a cost of 2 EP per turn to maintain the facility. There's a fairly decent chance (I hope!) of finding a garden world beyond Forge, and I can only hope that when I find it it's not already inhabited.

This would be the point in a more aggressive/competitive game that I would seriously consider going to war with the Filosi Consortium and stealing their home system (that I would be assured would have at least 4 BIO). But the Nova Star Federation isn't quite that brutish and in-game they don't really know anything about the filosi or how big their empire is. They also don't know that Filos Prime has 2 x 24 EP starbases in the system that could probably blow up a large battle fleet on their own. And they're still TL 1 starbases... and the filosi could upgrade them to TL 2 right now if they really wanted to :twisted:
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Iron Sky »

I like pretty much all the changes you've made; makes things much simpler and most of it just seems right.

For the spies, I like idea that catching spies is fairly easy but figuring out who they work for is difficult. What if you used the current mechanic for determining if spies were caught and killed and then each defensive spy present rolled a dice. On a 10, they determine who the spy that just died worked for.

That presents more distrust and diplomatic shenanigans that could go on too.

Other random thoughts: How about (rare) random events each turn can create "unaligned" spies that are essentially just terrorists to stir the pot? What if colonies in rebellion had a chance to produce these terrorists too?

I do like the idea of agriculture worlds being rare and precious.

Glad the "Iron Sky" empire-generation rules were helpful.

Looking forward to further playtest reports!
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Iron Sky wrote:I like pretty much all the changes you've made; makes things much simpler and most of it just seems right.
That's been the purpose of this playtest run: find any missing pieces that seem to be causing problems with the rules and either fix them, ironing out the rough spots, or replacing them with one of the other alternatives I've tested before and see if they work better.
For the spies, I like idea that catching spies is fairly easy but figuring out who they work for is difficult. What if you used the current mechanic for determining if spies were caught and killed and then each defensive spy present rolled a dice. On a 10, they determine who the spy that just died worked for.
That could work. I'll keep that in mind when I rewrite the rules. Right now I was thinking of letting the defensive spies roll a D10 against mission difficulty and rolling less than or equal to the difficulty would let them capture the spy and reveal the identity of the empire that was performing the mission. My biggest concern is making defensive spies too powerful.
Other random thoughts: How about (rare) random events each turn can create "unaligned" spies that are essentially just terrorists to stir the pot? What if colonies in rebellion had a chance to produce these terrorists too?
Rules for terrorist intel missions were present in the first edition as part of the random event rules. It might be worth resurrecting the random events and implementing them in a manner similar to the emerging empire rules where there is a % chance each turn of a random event that gets larger until it fires. Maybe +1% per turn per empire in the game?
Glad the "Iron Sky" empire-generation rules were helpful.
It created a good compromise when taken alongside the rewrite of the other empire discovery rules. Having it only increment on turns that no jump lane explorations occurs also means that you're less likely to find a new empire if no one is exploring. Eventually you will end up running into someone, though, which keeps things interesting.I think I'm up to a 7% emerging empire's chance in my test campaign right now. It's only a matter of time until another alien species shows up!
Looking forward to further playtest reports!
For the last two weeks the cycle has been rule development during the week and than playtest and report on the weekend. I wish I could speed that up and get some extra turns in, but I have a feeling that it will stay this way through the end of May. The good news is that the rule development is moving us closer to release and the testing is pointing out what rules need adjusted while I integrate back into a new draft before I then port back over to InDesign to finalize everything for release.

In other words, we are getting dangerously close to release, unless something drastic happens between now and the end of June.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Just a quick update to let people know that I'm up to Turn 42 in my playtest game. Here's a few highlights and thoughts based on what you're going to see reported in the updated diary I'll post tomorrow night:
  • Colonization costs of 25 x Range seem to be pretty good. That's cheap enough to allow for good short term expansion but also makes it worthwhile to eventually setup a sector capital somewhere so that you can push out colonies farther out.
  • I'm contemplating making facilities cost the same 25 x Range (min 25), but haven't decided for sure yet. The NSF is going to have to buy an orbital farm soon, and the most I look at it the more I think that the 50 EP price tag might be a little high. For some reason there doesn't ever seem to be enough economic points available to do everything that I want, and I think that's coloring my judgement. It just seems like the higher maintenance costs (2 EP per turn) seem to be a self correcting element when it comes to facilities spam. The NSF is going to have to build a supply depot in Vulcan or Forge (or wait for Elysium) before too long, so I'll know something sooner rather than later.
  • Found some errors in the Unit Refit rules that I need to correct. I'll try to get that done sometime tomorrow. Namely there is some duplication of rules from different versions and it needs cleaned up to be clearer as to what the intent and function of those rules are.
  • High Biosphere worlds remain utterly elusive, at least for the NSF. The Filosi Consortium has found 1 x 6 BIO and 2 x 3 BIO in the systems they've explored. The NSF may end up being forced to pay to bring in food from Filos Prime if the current trend holds up. I'm finding some decent mining systems in my territories, just nowhere to grow food. It's my luck that when I do find a high Biosphere system there's going to be someone living there.
  • Ship construction is definitely too slow for PBEM play, though it probably feels normal to the guys that played in Jay's Wing Commander games. The prototyping delay is the biggest frustration, but I like how that works out. I may finally get my first supercarrier built in about 6 turns. Woot!
  • Tech costs feel a bit high, but I think that's because I've been concentration my spending on things other than tech investment. The Nova Solar Federation is about half way to TL 2 and the Filosi Consortium is about half way to TL 3. I still haven't upgraded any filosi ships yet because they are pretty poor and only make about 18 EP per turn after expenses. That doesn't leave much money leftover to upgrade things, and the two units I would want to refit are their 24 EP starbases. I may have to breakdown and design them some new gunboat tenders at some point, though.
Anyway, I will have some update tomorrow night.

EDIT: After looking through my empires' ledgers I'm really starting to wonder if the facility maintenance costs aren't too high. The Filosi Consortium in particular seems awfully pinched paying 6 EP per turn on facility maintenance. There needs to be a limiting factor to keep players from plastering facilities everywhere just because they can, but I think this might be overboard. I'm going down to 1 EP per turn starting on my next turn along with reducing the costs back down to 25 EP x Range (min 25) to see if that works out better. I think that'll free up enough cash to make colonization and tech investment happen more frequently.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I'm also very seriously considering kicking down to 2 food per Census again based on the results of the game so far. Specifically, the situation with the Nova Solar Federation being unable to expand to all of its available systems because of food problems doesn't really feel right. It might be my lower than normal starting population in my home system, but I don't think so. I have a bunch of pretty nice systems that I would think should be colonized already, but I can't do it for lack of food. Having 3 Biosphere systems barely break even just really hurts because it means you have to 4+ Biosphere to export more food than the population eats each turn. I've spent most of my infrastructure dollars on Agriculture as a result of needing to squeeze every last morsel out of the planets that I can to keep expanding.

The only reason I'm not immediately switching gears on food cost is because the Filosi Consortium are pretty in the opposite situation right now. The six systems in their pocket of the universe have Biosphere values of 4, 6, 0, 3, 3, and 5. The problem they have is that the RAW values are 5, 2, 0 , 4, 2, 2. They've got food, but are resource poor instead.

To throw some numbers out, the Novese produce 54 food per turn with 17 Census (+3 PP per turn). The Filosi produce 32 food per turn with 8 Census (+8 PP per turn). Reducing food costs to 2 per Census would give the Novese +20 PP per turn (enough for 10 more Census) while the Filosi would have +16 PP per turn. The problem there of course is that the difference the reduced food cost per Census gives the Novese almost 7 times more food per turn while just doubling the amount the Filosi produce. That's mainly what gives me pause and makes me think that there's probably not anything wrong with the rules as written, and that they are more or less performing as intended (i.e., they are making food a very valuable and rare commodity).

Any thoughts thus far?
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by countercheck »

Have you considered linking food production to tech? Rther than adjusting the cost, you could have people tech up to increase production.
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

countercheck wrote:Have you considered linking food production to tech? Rther than adjusting the cost, you could have people tech up to increase production.
Linking food production to tech would get pretty nasty, as you would then have to apply the modifier to every single colony instead of keeping it simple to Utilized Agriculture x Biosphere. The colonies themselves have different population increase costs based on their TL (Pre-Industrial through Interstellar), but there's no differentiation between Interstellar population increase costs (again, to keep the rules from getting obnoxiously overcomplicated).

The more modifiers you throw into these rules the harder they get to run. The old morale check rules are a good example of that. Too many modifiers to add and subtract and they just were too cumbersome in practice. On paper they're fine, but when you're managing a half dozen empires... oi.

Now, as for as tech goes, I could see introducing "facilities" that would basically be system upgrades that would increase efficiency. They might come along at a certain TL, or if there's enough of them an empire could choose one at each tech level. For example, and empire could learn how to build a Soil Rejuvenatory that would increase a system's Biosphere by 1 or increase its food production by a certain percentage.

BTW, without fail, I was about ready to go bed last night when the emerging empires check finally produced another empire. And where did they appear? Oh, one jump from Elysium of course! The Kishok Star Empire is a TL 2 (almost TL 3) empire that has explored two star systems (technically three, now that they have found Elysium). And their home system has a spatial anomaly, so their tech advancement is going to be insane (16 tech points free per turn!)
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by mavikfelna »

For facilities, I would make the cost 25+25xdistance from a capital. So capitals pay 25 but first ring pays 50. That would probably be good enough to drop the maintenance to 1EP but 2EP doesn't seem out of wack totally.

For the problem with resources, RAW, BIO and perhaps CC, perhaps allow a mega-project with a cost of 50xnew value that can raise one stat by one. Only one project allowed per system, so if you raise BIO you cant ever raise RAW or CC.

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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by Iron Sky »

I like the idea of agricultural worlds being rare and valuable and gives the Filosi more reason to trade with (or be invaded by) the NSF and giving their empires different "flavors".

What about a "Mechanized Farming" facility that increases a system's Bio by 1 at the cost of 1 RAW (plus Facility building cost and maintenance, of course). Or maybe allow the purchase of additional food up to a system's Utilized Agriculture at 1 EP each? (Agricultural Investment)

I like the idea of costs being based off of costs to capitals. That sounds good to me.

As a random and un-researched thought, what if the empire's capital got bonus production based off of it's TL. So, if it was TL3, it would get +3 EP, +3 Food, +3 Research, etc, to reflect their improved Technology. Or maybe every colony got it: RAW/BIO x Utilized + TL = EP/food, +1 research, etc. maybe with the TL bonus no more than doubling existing output to avoid a TL10 empire getting 11 food out of a 1 BIO x Utilized system?
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Re: Lost in a Sea of Stars II - 2E Development Update

Post by virtutis.umbra »

The Kishok sound like a fun addition to the mix. Do they share a border with the filosi? Are you using AIX values for all empires, or all but the Novese? What are the values?
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