VBAM Games Forums

Another quick email from the abyss!

Before I left, Gareth posted an interesting population growth option up on the VBAM Forums (which I need to cross-post my last post to, now that I think about it!). Here is that thread:

http://forums.vbamgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=213

After reviewing Gareth's idea, I think it is actually a far better solution than what we have now for population growth in the VBAM Campaign System. It is quick, simple and provides much fewer headaches.

In thinking about his rule over my vacation, I also started thinking about how using that rule would change how colonies function. The quandary when I left was where players should be allowed to place new Census? Should they go to planets with the highest Census, or lowest Census? Should Morale be a factor? Along those lines, I came to the conclusion that allowing the *player* to place those Census, at a max of 1 Census per colony, would be for the best.

Then I got thinking about colonies and colony fleets and how they relate to the population growth calculation. That in turn made a light pop on in my head: "What if you could send colony fleets without Census to establish outposts in systems?" This though came to me when I was reading the Mass Effect prequel novel, and it set my mind remembering that in that game universe there are a lot of little settlements that aren't really "colony" sized by VBAM terms, but still inhabited and controlled by specific powers. Now, I think it could make things very interesting if empires were able to found these kinds of outposts with Census-less colony fleets. The first major benefit is that a system would be converted from Neutral or Claimed to being Controlled, giving the empire a clear legal right to a system even if they didn't have the Census yet to exploit it. The secondary benefit is that it would provide an increase in the number of colonies an empire has, increasing their population growth! So if you had a lot of colonies, you would experience population growth faster!

This kind of a solution would tackle some of the issues that have been raised by people, and partially addressed by options like Charlie's small frontier population growth rule.

My biggest hope with the outpost rule (that I still need to playtest) is that it would actually allow for more "natural" colonization and expansion into surrounding territories. You would still sometimes need to move Census around, but the colony fleet's purpose would be shifted from that of simple population mover (which it could still do) to being an active colonization tool.

Referring back to the problem of where new Census should be placed, one could argue that it would be best for game realism or continuity to still have Census appear on the most heavily populated worlds and then have to be moved, and a part of me agrees with that point, but it just added micromanagement that I as a player would rather just avoid if I had the choice.

Thoughts?

Tyrel Lohr wrote:Another quick email from the abyss!
Referring back to the problem of where new Census should be placed, one could argue that it would be best for game realism or continuity to still have Census appear on the most heavily populated worlds and then have to be moved, and a part of me agrees with that point, but it just added micromanagement that I as a player would rather just avoid if I had the choice.

Thoughts?

I've been pondering back to that a lot,

And I'm starting to settle on the idea of letting the player distribute the census (although with the limitation that each colony must receive a census point before any colony can receive a second point, etc),

It would minimise the otherwise necessary pointless "freighters of census" travelling around every new year And would allow the government to either push the colonisation effort or not as they choose (either encouraging moving people out to the colonies or discouraging it according to their goals),

I'm in favor of allowing the player to pick where the new census goes. As Gareth points out, that effectively allows "the government" to encourage growth in particular directions, and would represent various incentive packages, tax breaks, etc. I agree with Gareth's notion of having to distribute evenly before doubling up.

While in truth, I suspect that population movement is in many ways out of the hands of government, if everything is automated, it's not much of a game.

Charles Lewis wrote:While in truth, I suspect that population movement is in many ways out of the hands of government,

True,

Certainly the forcible relocation of huge chunks of population that goes on at the moment is, erm, frowned upon these days (Loading several million folks onto freighters "because the government wants a supply point on Alpha Centauri" doesn't usually cut it as an excuse!)

It looks like the general consensus thus far is that allowing players to place their new Census is the way to go. We have to mark our calendars!

The biggest issue for me in the Census placement debate is micromanagement; if you can eliminate some MM, then you probably should. As it is with the civilian fleets, I would like to see trade and colony fleets be buffed up a bit so that they have some better defined or more useful roles. Colony fleets in particular need some extra functions -- thus my idea about Outposts -- in order to keep them being more than glorified Census movers. There probably isn't much more that can be done with transport fleets, as they essentially get Cargo (10) and Assault (10) abilities, but their cost should probably be decreased to make them more worthwhile considering their own limitations.

Gareth_Perkins wrote:Certainly the forcible relocation of huge chunks of population that goes on at the moment is, erm, frowned upon these days (Loading several million folks onto freighters "because the government wants a supply point on Alpha Centauri" doesn't usually cut it as an excuse!)

True, forced relocation probably isn't high up on the to-do list of most of the individuals that our troops march aboard waiting colony ships

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:
It looks like the general consensus thus far is that allowing players to place their new Census is the way to go. We have to mark our calendars! Smile

I still disagree though.

I am very much in favor of forcing players to move their census points the hard way and thus they have to risk loosing them.

Tyrel Lohr wrote:Colony fleets in particular need some extra functions -- thus my idea about Outposts -- in order to keep them being more than glorified Census movers.

Can you explain this in a bit more detail?

What does opening an outpost achieve? Does it open it for population growth? Make building in the system easier? (Presumably it would now be a requirement of building in the system now?). It sounds like a cool idea - but I'd like a bit more info,

Personally my feeling is that transport fleets are the trouble-area,

Building military supply ships is better in almost every way (cheaper to produce, reduced risk of raiding, and have more utility. They cost upkeep, but can always be mothballed (and the capital investment in building them is so much cheaper it's still worth it),

Rainer wrote:

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject:
It looks like the general consensus thus far is that allowing players to place their new Census is the way to go. We have to mark our calendars! Smile

I still disagree though.

I am very much in favor of forcing players to move their census points the hard way and thus they have to risk loosing them.

And there are perfectly legitimate reasons to disagree. This is one of those things that can be argued both ways, to some extent.

That said, Rainer, under a scheme where total empire population drives growth instead of individual colonies, where should the new population appear? Where the largest colonies are, representing the largest pools of breeding stock (if I may be so crude) or at the smallest colonies, representing the opportunities found on the frontier?

Of course, there's no reason if this new growth scheme is adopted you couldn't just say all new population appears on the most populated colonies and works its way down regardless of what the new rules may indicate.

[Then there's a radial notion of population growth, where you start with the Homeworld, give it the first of the new population, and then radiate out based on distance from the Homeworld (probably favoring larger population centers over smaller).]

Gareth_Perkins wrote:What does opening an outpost achieve? Does it open it for population growth? Make building in the system easier? (Presumably it would now be a requirement of building in the system now?). It sounds like a cool idea - but I'd like a bit more info,

Certainly. This is something that sprang into my head during vacation, pretty much out of nowhere (though it has some analog back to MOO2).

The idea came when I was trying to make a rigid definition of what constitues a "Controlled" system. As a result, I ended up having to define the other states, too. For proper background, this is what I ended up coming up with:

Controlled System - Your empire has a colony or outpost in the system.

Claimed System - The system does not contain colonies or outposts, but is able to trace a supply route back to your territories. Tie breakers for claims are military dominance (most EP of units present) or supply route length (this ties into the variable supply lengthst that I have been using).

Contested System - Two or more powers have forces or colonies/outposts in the same system.

Neutral System - The system is not Controlled, Claimed or Contested. Essentially it is too far away from anyone to be within anyone's sphere of influence.

With those defined, establishing outposts have the following benefits:

1) Establishing control of a system. The first major purpose of an outpost is to establish control of a system, converting it into a Controlled System. For this purpose, having an outpost in the system is the same as having a full colony there. This would allow players to make more formal land grabs on surrounding territories without having to wait for a Census to become available. The downside of course is that you could spam out colony fleets to establish outposts everywhere -- but so long as colony fleets are fairly expensive to build, that shouldn't be a problem.

2) Allow increased population growth. Using your population growth alternative, Gareth, outposts would count as colonies in the formula, so having more outposts would increase your rate of population growth. This ties back into Charlie's frontier population growth -- many smaller settlements providing an increased chance of population growth.

3) Growth into fully-fledged colony worlds. During population growth, you would be able to place a Census at an outpost in order to turn it into a colony with 1 Census and 1 Morale. This event marks the transformation of the small settlement into a major one worthy of being called a colony.

4) Can be destroyed by opponents that have issued a Declaration of Hostilities with your empire. In my current revised diplomatic rules, attacking colonies of a power you have declared Hostilities against is generally a no-no. That requires a Declaration of War to carry out. You can invade and do some limited bombardment, IIRC, but at that point you aren't going around doing anything too severe. However, you are under no such limitations destroying small enemy settlements (outposts). A few hundred colonists getting slaughtered is a drop in the bucket compared to the loss of thousands or hundreds of thousands at a full colony.

Gareth_Perkins wrote:Personally my feeling is that transport fleets are the trouble-area,
Building military supply ships is better in almost every way (cheaper to produce, reduced risk of raiding, and have more utility. They cost upkeep, but can always be mothballed (and the capital investment in building them is so much cheaper it's still worth it),

Transport fleets need to be quite a bit cheaper. Their only benefits right now is that they can take quite a bit of damage before being destroyed, and they cost nothing to maintain. I think if the transport fleet was a bit of a "swiss army knife" with a wide variety of interchangeable skills it might be a bit better investment, but I don't have any concrete ideas.

Rainer wrote:I still disagree though.

RAINER!!!

Rainer wrote:I am very much in favor of forcing players to move their census points the hard way and thus they have to risk loosing them.

There is probably enough of a divide to include both as options in any finalized rules. I can see both sides of the argument, and you're right it is nice to be able to ambush the loaded colony fleets and destroy enemy Census. For small to midsized empires there probably wouldn't be much of an effect, but for large empires (like the Narum, perhaps?) there are substantial distances to be crossed, and auto-placing Census would allow you to bypass enemy forces with a little too much ease.

Charles Lewis wrote:[Then there's a radial notion of population growth, where you start with the Homeworld, give it the first of the new population, and then radiate out based on distance from the Homeworld (probably favoring larger population centers over smaller).]

Tangentally, that also brings up another issue -- what if your empire contains multiple homeworlds, or colonies of similar size? And what if you are tracking each alien Census type separately for Menagerie effect purposes?

There are a lot of additional considerations and options that we probably need to take into account -- that is for sure!

Where the largest colonies are, representing the largest pools of breeding stock (if I may be so crude) or at the smallest colonies, representing the opportunities found on the frontier?

What historical precedents do we have to draw upon for a realistic model?

With a very fast thought process, I wonder where and how the population distributed during the expansion westward in the USA?

Another model that comes to mind is the height of the British Empire, but that model may be flawed as there was (predominately) an existing indigenous population in those colonial locations.

What other models are there to reference?

Charles Lewis wrote:That said, Rainer, under a scheme where total empire population drives growth instead of individual colonies, where should the new population appear? Where the largest colonies are, representing the largest pools of breeding stock (if I may be so crude) or at the smallest colonies, representing the opportunities found on the frontier?

I was wondering if the current system could not be adapted to tracking individual colonies instead. Would fractional census numbers work? Then population growth could be distributed across the whole empire. For economic purposes they would be simply rounded down.

Chyll wrote:What other models are there to reference?

I am pretty sure that Spanish and Portuguese colonization during the 15th and 16th centuries would also yield some useful numbers (especially on the island possessions).

Rainer wrote:

Charles Lewis wrote:That said, Rainer, under a scheme where total empire population drives growth instead of individual colonies, where should the new population appear? Where the largest colonies are, representing the largest pools of breeding stock (if I may be so crude) or at the smallest colonies, representing the opportunities found on the frontier?

I was wondering if the current system could not be adapted to tracking individual colonies instead. Would fractional census numbers work? Then population growth could be distributed across the whole empire. For economic purposes they would be simply rounded down.

I thought of using fractional census for a 'new' system of population growth and the only problem with that is there is a bunch of more numbers to track. Can you imagine trying to track 15 or so fractional census for every empire in a game?

-Bren