Rules question, regarding Scouts

[Asmoridin]

Hi!

Me and some buddies have been playing VBAM, and we're having a great time. We love the system!

We do however, have a disagreement with one another as to the correct use of scouts. There's two issues we're having problems with.

First is the meaning of the word 'used'. To clarify, 'used' is only relevant for things outside of the actual battle, like using intel points for surprise, including/excluding formations, etc. And a scout is used for the campaign turn (so the same scout can't use intel points in two seperate scenarios per campaign turn). Is this correct? Also- does whether or not a scout is considered 'used' matter for purposes of using scout functions? If I use a scout at the start of a scenario to spend an intel point to increase my surprise roll, can I still use his scout functions in the first round of combat?

Second, we have a question over use of the scout functions themselves:

Let's say I have a Scout(1). I don't use his AS or AF values, which gives him a second scout function.

On the first round of combat, I use him for fleet support. With two scout functions, he can reduce the damage facing the fleet by 2d6 + 8 (or (d6+4) x 2 ?).

On the second round of combat, we have a disagreement. Some of the players think that scouts need to rest their scout functions in between uses. So continuing the example, the scout can do nothing for round 2 of combat while his scout functions 'recover'. Some of the players can't find that explicitly stated in the rules, and say that the scouts get their scout functions every round of combat (I'm in the latter, if that matters). Which is correct?

I mean, we just want to play the game correctly. We enjoy the game, and just want to do the right thing.

Thanks for your time!

[Tyrel Lohr]

Jay is going to have to weigh in on this (he has more history with the development of the CSCR), but here is what I would say:

Point 1: Using Scouts in Multiple Scenarios on the Same Campaign Turn

By the wording of the rules, it seems to me that if a scout is "used" in one scenario on a campaign turn then it can's be "used" during scenario generation again on that same turn.

That being said, I have always allowed scouts to be used multiple times during scenario generation for multiple scenarios on the same turn. At least I think I have. It doesn't come up very often in my games, but that is mostly because they tend to be low-combat and not involve a lot of battles in the same location on the same turn.

Point 2: Scout Use in Combat

Scouts are currently an unbalanced option in the present CSCR. We have been working on a new CSCR concept for the past year (albeit going in three different directions), and I had hoped we would have something put together by now... but obviously that hasn't happened due to other professional and personal commitments.

Fleet Support is probably one of the most broken options in the CSCR right now. I have been working on some alternative scout rules which I might have cleaned up in about two weeks after I get back from vacation.

In your case, I would propose adopting a house rule for Fleet Support that would halve its effectiveness to 1D3+2 per scout function. Then taking a "cooldown round" wouldn't be necessary, and it should balance itself out.

As a preview of what I have generally mapped out for my proposed changes to scout use in CSCR 2.0, there would be a task force-based limitation on the total number of scout functions that a single task force command ship could coordinate. I would have this be equal to half of Command Rating, rounding up. That means that a good Battleship (CR 10+) could order missions each round for 5 or more scout functions. That's enough to be effective, but deter obnoxious scout use.

The missions that scout units could perform in combat would also be ratcheted down in importance. These include:

• Raise/Lower Formation Level by 1

• Increase/Decrease on unit's AS/AF by 50%

• Jam enemy scout functions (and possibly anti-jamming, too)

There are a few more ideas I had in mind, but I can't remember them right now. The idea is to get rid of the blanket damage protection bonuses that scouts are capable of now (and are unbalanced in smaller engagements) and make it more about using scouts as force multipliers.

I have been talking with Jay and Charlie recently about some possible changes to Intel (sparked by Jay's work on the Federation Commander conversion, as well as Gareth's recent posts here on the forums), and some of those proposed playtest rules would dovetail in well with my scout alterations. Specifically, "Military Intel" would be assigned to specific task forces, with a maximum equal to the task force command ship's Command Cost. These points would then be what would be available for use in combination with fleet scout elements during scenario generation.

Hopefully once I get back from my vacation I should have some more (and better) information available on these things. A week in the middle of nowhere with a laptop and a generator tends to lead to me getting quite a bit of creative work done

-Tyrel

[mwaschak]

Jay is going to have to weigh in on this (he has more history with the development of the CSCR), but here is what I would say:

I can't believe the CSCR is nearly ten years old now! I was checking back on my original notes with Byron to update this. A scout is used once in scenario setup, and then once again during the battle, according to the originals we have here. As Tyrel was careful to mention this is something getting serious attention in the rewrites and revisions for the Federation Commander campaign material.

Hopefully once I get back from my vacation I should have some more (and better) information available on these things. A week in the middle of nowhere with a laptop and a generator tends to lead to me getting quite a bit of creative work done

I have to apologize for my own delay here. I switched to a better job about a month ago, and have taken on a number of big projects around the house. What development time I have had has been going right in to Federation Admiral. This is easing up, but has caused a few delays.

-Jay

[Asmoridin]

There are a few more ideas I had in mind, but I can't remember them right now. The idea is to get rid of the blanket damage protection bonuses that scouts are capable of now (and are unbalanced in smaller engagements) and make it more about using scouts as force multipliers.

Oh man, I've been so busy, I never got around to responding.

Basically, we're not asking for purposes of a too small engagement (which we could definitely see the unbalance)- in our case, we were trying to play the Battle of Rappahannock (2nd Boltian and Kuissian War). The Terrans start with the 1 Tonnant (with Scout(1)). We just wanted to know if the poor Terrans get to use the scout in all 4 of the turns they get, or not. Without it, they seem to get slaughtered pretty quick. With it, they could actually make it (in our limited experience, so results could vary, I'm sure).

A scout is used once in scenario setup, and then once again during the battle, according to the originals we have here.

Well, part of the disagreement is the combat example in the VBAM campaign guide, where the Brindaki player has a Scout II, and uses it in every round (but only 1 scout function a round, I think?).

Either way, we're excited for Federation Admirality =). Also, any hope of more Bolitan/Kuissian source material some day?

[mwaschak]

Oh man, I've been so busy, I never got around to responding.

No worries, we are still here .

Basically, we're not asking for purposes of a too small engagement (which we could definitely see the unbalance)- in our case, we were trying to play the Battle of Rappahannock (2nd Boltian and Kuissian War). The Terrans start with the 1 Tonnant (with Scout(1)). We just wanted to know if the poor Terrans get to use the scout in all 4 of the turns they get, or not. Without it, they seem to get slaughtered pretty quick. With it, they could actually make it (in our limited experience, so results could vary, I'm sure).

That is a tough, tough fight for the Terrans. They rarely get out well, and if they do, it is by the skin of their teeth. Did you use the Tonnant for damage reduction?

Well, part of the disagreement is the combat example in the VBAM campaign guide, where the Brindaki player has a Scout II, and uses it in every round (but only 1 scout function a round, I think?).

I will need to grab my book and check later today. Is that the example where it uses damage reduction through the entire battle?

Either way, we're excited for Federation Admirality =). Also, any hope of more Bolitan/Kuissian source material some day?

Thank you. That playtesting has been going well. Although Federation Commander doesn't have scouts in the traditional sense, it has been a great place to iron out rules in all the right places.

As far as Boltian and Kuissian material, we absolutely have more books planned. "Kuissian Succession" and "Beyond These Worlds" are the two planned supplements and with most of their timelines and new material plotted out. I am trying to figure out what game material it should include.

-Jay

[Asmoridin]

No worries, we are still here .

Thankfully!

That is a tough, tough fight for the Terrans. They rarely get out well, and if they do, it is by the skin of their teeth. Did you use the Tonnant for damage reduction?

And, in all fairness, it should be a very tough time for them. I tried to forgo shooting with the Tonnant, and use the extra scout channel for damage reduction- I wasn't concerned with killing opponents, only surviving 4 rounds of shooting. However, we had a disagreement with the intent of the scout rule, and ended up playing with the 1 round 'recharge' way as a compromise (we didn't think about the uses for directed damage at the time, which would've quickly overcome that poor scout).

I will need to grab my book and check later today. Is that the example where it uses damage reduction through the entire battle?

The one example I remember had the scout using a lot of formation changing too. It did use the Damage reduction once though, I think.

Thank you. That playtesting has been going well. Although Federation Commander doesn't have scouts in the traditional sense, it has been a great place to iron out rules in all the right places.

As far as Boltian and Kuissian material, we absolutely have more books planned. "Kuissian Succession" and "Beyond These Worlds" are the two planned supplements and with most of their timelines and new material plotted out. I am trying to figure out what game material it should include.

-Jay

Well, we're certainly looking forward to it. The Boltian/Kuissian source material has really made for a fun universe for us to play in =).

Thanks a ton!

[mwaschak]

Thankfully!

No problem .

The one example I remember had the scout using a lot of formation changing too. It did use the Damage reduction once though, I think.

As I recall from my notes that was pretty central (even though damage reduction does need dialed back some) in keeping the Terran fleet alive. This is especially true if the Kuissian player puts his big guns forward and out of flag formation.

In the "historical" version of the battle the Kuissians pulled the big guns to protect the flag squadron, thinking they had just encountered a Boltian fleet with its new allies. Of course once the Boltians and Terrans engaged each other, the reality of the situation was a little more obvious.

Well, we're certainly looking forward to it. The Boltian/Kuissian source material has really made for a fun universe for us to play in =).

Thanks a ton!

You are quite welcome! For obvious reasons Federation Admiral took center stage for the last 9 or so months of my development time, but I am still quite intent on finishing the next BK books. I have been thinking about what gaming extras to include besides more scenario material.

So if you guys have something in particular you want to see in the new source books (A tactical system? More fiction? New optional Rules?), please let us know.

-Jay