Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

General discussion of the Victory by Any Means campaign system
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virtutis.umbra
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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by virtutis.umbra »

Welcome back to the Assembly, House K'Tal! We applaud the swift resumption of rule-of-law. Per ardua ad astra and all that.
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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

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virtutis.umbra wrote:
3. Independent System Repatriation Protocol
Any system lacking an Assembly delegation of its own shall, at the declaration of a House whose existing territory currently borders that system and whose non-civilian naval starships are the only warships in orbit within that system, be granted to that House as a new portion of its sovereign territory.

If and only if this system lies within the Prosperity Zone, the Assembly Chair has Veto Power over this declaration. Further, any House here represented may declare an Objection to this repatriation intent, in which case a full debate shall occur and a majority vote in favor must be counted to grant the repatriation (The Assembly Chair may Object without Vetoing, if so desired). Lack of Objection or Veto shall constitute approval from this Assembly for Repatriation of the System under this Protocol.

Local resistance after the repatriation under this Protocol shall be considered rebellion, and the newly-sovereign House shall be empowered by this Assembly to suppress such rebellion in accordance with NEE laws of war. (No WMDs, no direct assault on civilian Census, no targeting of Infrastructure or Shipyards, all reasonable efforts to avoid collateral damage, and [per the separate Peace and Prosperity Act, this clause to be stricken if that Act is repealed] no Assault ships used in planetary operations.)
House Hannover supports this Protocol with the following amendment.
A House with naval warships in a system subject to this Protocol is not required to exercise their right for repatriation. They may at a later date exercise it assuming that said system is still subject to the Protocol
It appears to House Hannover that a House, for whatever reason, might have reason to move their ships into or through a system but might feel it un-needed to take a system under their wing.

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by BLHarrison »

House Hannover's Ambassador rises again:
In light of my statement of support for the Independent System Repatriation Protocol I wish to announce that per Elector Johann's direction, the systems know as Lacaille and Lalanda are now to be considered under House Hannover's protection.

OCC with all this land grabbing going on, how soon can we start using the system(s) claimed? That is assuming none of the systems decided to revolt? Concordia has a food surplus that can cover both the claimed systems so those systems might welcome the intervention. Of course they also could just be stubborn :D

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by virtutis.umbra »

Thank you, Ambassador of Hannover.

House Phoenix recognizes the importance of clarifying the Repatriation Protocol to specify that a House's declaration to implement it is wholly optional, and that as long as the terms of the Protocol hold at the time of declaration it could be the first or the fifth time that a House's starships orbited unopposed in a system. I have edited the original Protocol draft to include the "Hannover Proviso," precisely as submitted by your delegation except with a terminal full-stop added to the second sentence.
Citizen Shareholder Landry Aigrette
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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by BLHarrison »

House Hannover's Ambassador rises yet again (with some background chatter to the effect of "When will he be finished?) :roll: "

This House also wishes to announce it's support of the other two bills before these gathered Houses.

We are particularly supportive of the Exploration bill as we are planning to delve into the unknown ourselves. Assistance in maintaining our scouting and exploration units will be of great worth for all of us.

On the subject of ships and their uses I would like a clarification on the Limited Hulls Law, along with an amendment to it that I feel is worthy of consideration.

As to the need for clarification. Does this act cover only Naval Forces? Can we "prototype" ground forces unhindered? Or are we limited to 1 Naval and 1 Ground Force type per year? Or are we limited to 1 Prototype period?

I ask because Elector Johann has noted that we have no standing medical or repair units. May I suggest that provided the unit to be prototyped is unarmed and has a medical or repair or similar non-combatant function that it be exempted from whatever limitation is in effect. Further more, the latter refitting of such a unit into a combatant would be considered a violation of the Limited Hulls Law.

OCC assuming we agree to this exemption we would have to decide if giving such a unit PD would be considered a violation or if it should just have a DV + plus whatever special non-combat function is all it would have in order to be exempted.

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

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(OOC: I apologize for my delayed response as it has been a long week. I need to read through the details of the treaties, but I have a few questions to raise. I apologize for not directly addressing them at the moment.)

Honored delegates, House Craytan applauds the initiation shown by this Assembly and by House Phoenix and Scoote in particular. My House is investigating the details of these treaties and will be sure to respond appropriately soon.

House Craytan does have a question to raise with respect to the unfortunate collapse of House Winton in the Ecabore system. We applaud the efforts of House Phoenix and Scoote to help provide stability and prosperity to this region. Given our proximity, House Craytan respectfully adds its voice to support Ecabore in a collaborative manner with our friends in House Phoenix and hopefully new friends in House Scoote.

My House looks forward to collaborating to making this region stable, secure, and prosperous.

Representative Altorian sa Jenlon
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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by Takeyabue »

Honored Delegates,

As representative of House Suratte I stand briefly to express the support of our small and far removed part of humanity for the first and second proposals which seem to benefit all to the cost of none. New markets and the expansion of trade will only serve to lift us all up out of the depths to which we have fallen.

In addition, we would voice our opposition to the third proposal which conversely seems to benefit but a few at the cost of many most deeply affected by our current malaise. We should seek to lift others up and not crush them with foreign expansionism and a continuance of war.

Let us all die of old age, fat and happy in our own beds.

Pieter van der Broecke
Factor Resident
House Suratte

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by gstano »

The House Craytan representative awaits his next opportunity and then addresses the Assembly.

Again, please allow me to recognize the effort that has gone into these proposals, particularly the effort by House Phoenix.

My House will gladly support proposal 1. Depending on how much exploration occurs and the amount of income generated by the Prosperity Zone, there may need to be guidelines how how to handle funds when not enough are available.

Proposal 2 may not be entirely necessary as most systems where this would be most useful would be home systems. The exceptions are Zeta and now Ecabore.

Proposal 3: Again, House Phoenix is attempting to restore stability and prosperity to this region through sensible discussion in this Assembly. May I propose an amendment that the neutral system must determine, but whatever local means they choose, whether or not to accept the incorporation? This may help prevent the conflict that House Suratte voiced concern for.

Lastly, House Craytan respectfully requests a meeting with Houses Phoenix and Scoote on the status of Ecabore in light of our finalizing several treaties with House Winton. We will be happy to post all relevant discussions for this Assembly to view after the meeting.

Thank-you Representatives for your time.
It's not as bad as it turned out to be.

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by BigPete »

Fellow delegates,

House K'Tal is catching up with the deliberations of this Assembly that have taken place in our absence.

Our government have carefully considered the three proposals currently under consideration. In the interest in increased stability and peace across the New Earth Empire, House K'Tal supports these three proposals.

We look forward to developing diplomatic and economic relations with all Houses across the NEE for the mutual benefit of all parties.

Regards

Ambassador Traeger

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by Stad »

[quote="virtutis.umbra"

EDIT: Clarified and shortened the significant clauses by pulling commentary out to a preamble, and added SOVEREIGNTY CLAUSE, and separated MILITARY ASSISTANCE CLAUSE into two separate clauses.
The Ecabore Accord wrote: House Scoote recognizes a need for House Phoenix to support the starving citizens of Kapteyn's Star while Scootist attentions focus coreward on Groombridge and Ecabore. House Phoenix recognizes the immediacy and legitimacy of need for House Scoote to move in to curb or prevent lawlessness, piracy and starvation in Groombridge and Ecabore.
  1. COMMERCE CLAUSE: House Phoenix pledges to adhere to the particulars of a TRADE TREATY with House Scoote to generate material, capital and food transfers between the Incorporated Republic and Scootist systems, empowering both Houses to support the starving Indep worlds.
  2. PROTECTORATE EXPANSION CLAUSE: This clause shall have the binding effect of a BORDER TREATY with the additional stipulation treating Kapteyn's Star as effectively lying within the Incorporated Republic of Phoenix's territory, and likewise Groombridge and Ecabore within House Scoote's.
  3. MILITARY ASSISTANCE CLAUSE: House Phoenix pledges to honorably and rapidly respond to any Scootist request for military assistance in operating against hostile rebel or pirate forces in Groombridge or Ecabore. If resistance is met by House Phoenix in Kapteyn's Star, House Phoenix will welcome but not require assistance from Scootist military forces in dispatching active hostiles, with such operations never to interfere with the letter or spirit of the above Protectorate Expansion Clause.
  4. MILITARY LIMITATION CLAUSE: The Assistance Clause is not to be taken as a full and open-ended mutual defense agreement, but rather an exception to the normal rules against transit of combat-capable ships into systems otherwise forbidden by the above Border Treaty: each House agrees only to allowing the other to transition reasonable, well-behaved task groups between jump points for supporting the Military Assistance Clause's precepts. Scootist naval or ground forces will not oppose or interfere with Shareholder movement into Kapteyn's Star, nor will House Scoote engage in military, diplomatic or political resistance to the Incorporated Republic's offer of protectorate or Shareholder status to the citizens of that system; Shareholder naval or ground forces will likewise respect Scootist support endeavors in Groombridge and Ecabore.
  5. SOVEREIGNTY CLAUSE: If a new House takes swift and decisive action to restore order and Assembly representation to Ecabore's inhabited worlds, the above Clauses shall not extend to supporting or countenancing hostile takeover, invasion, warfare or usurpation of that new legitimate sovereign House's right to independent control of Ecabore unless the new House is declared by this Assembly to lack legitimacy or otherwise be unfit for independence.
Does House Scoote accept this [EDITED] treaty?[/quote]

We of House Scoote accept this Treaty with Wise Minds and Hearts

ooc - Im in Calgary, AB, we just got flooded this weekend, so I have been on and off...

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by mwaschak »

BLHarrison wrote: OCC with all this land grabbing going on, how soon can we start using the system(s) claimed? That is assuming none of the systems decided to revolt? Concordia has a food surplus that can cover both the claimed systems so those systems might welcome the intervention. Of course they also could just be stubborn :D
You still have to move in and take over as per the current 2e rules. I could have handled this a bit better but I wanted to still do a true test of 2e's expansion mechanics. From a setting perspective I like to think about this as the Hegemony has collapsed. This little neutral systems just aren't organized enough to stand up for themselves and the old Houses have enough power that they will be the dominant force in the area and can take them over.

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by mwaschak »

Takeyabue wrote:
In addition, we would voice our opposition to the third proposal which conversely seems to benefit but a few at the cost of many most deeply affected by our current malaise. We should seek to lift others up and not crush them with foreign expansionism and a continuance of war.

Let us all die of old age, fat and happy in our own beds.
House Raptor believes there is much wisdom in Ambassador van der Broecke's words. We have seen enough of war and it is possible this could lead to a sudden competition between our noble houses. With that said, we have a bill on the floor and House Raptor will bring it to a vote along with the Head of the Assembly.

(OOC: Can you start a new thread with the bill. Then we will each vote on it and close voting Wednesday. Tyrel is close with the orders and this will work out well.)

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by mwaschak »

Takeyabue wrote:
In addition, we would voice our opposition to the third proposal which conversely seems to benefit but a few at the cost of many most deeply affected by our current malaise. We should seek to lift others up and not crush them with foreign expansionism and a continuance of war.

Let us all die of old age, fat and happy in our own beds.
House Raptor believes there is much wisdom in Ambassador van der Broecke's words. We have seen enough of war and it is possible this could lead to a sudden competition between our noble houses. With that said, we have a bill on the floor and House Raptor will bring it to a vote along with the Head of the Assembly.

(OOC: I will start a new thread with the bill. Then we will each vote on it and close voting Wednesday. Tyrel is close with the orders and this will work out well.)

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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by virtutis.umbra »

House Suratte wrote:... I stand briefly to express the support of our small and far removed part of humanity for the first and second proposals which seem to benefit all to the cost of none. New markets and the expansion of trade will only serve to lift us all up out of the depths to which we have fallen.
House Phoenix welcomes the verbal support of House Suratte, and is pleased to note the generality of support these two measures seem to be engendering. The wisdom of this Assembly is self-evident.
House Suratte wrote:In addition, we would voice our opposition to the third proposal which conversely seems to benefit but a few at the cost of many most deeply affected by our current malaise. We should seek to lift others up and not crush them with foreign expansionism and a continuance of war.
As to this, it would seem Ambassador van der Broecke, and Lady Violet, both are taking a ... cynical view of the intent and letter of the proposed Independent System Repatriation Protocol. I shall endeavor to avoid pedantry, but in brief:

Is it not the case that all citizens of humanity's worlds deserve representation in this Assembly? Is it not also the case that the Indep worlds currently have no such representation? Is this not, speaking broadly, due to a combination of lost central control; the destruction or dissipation of the Houses which previously administered these worlds under the Hegemony; the loss of a sufficient technology base to foster the creation and maintenance of interstellar starships; and a rise of piracy, lawlessness, rebellion, and warlordism in these House-less systems?

We, by virtue of our very presence at this Assembly, are manifestly the Houses whose passage through the fall of the Hegemony and the Interregnum has been favorable: our food supplies are ample, our technology bases and security forces intact and undivided. The strength of the House system that ruled all the myriad worlds of the Hegemony, like the flower of chivalry and nobility of ancient Terra's many nations, was what kept humanity safe, trade and research flowing, and the brutalities of warfare and piracy at bay.

The Indep worlds, for all intents and purposes, have no House -- for a House unrepresented in this Assembly is no House at all. And administration of systems by Houses is the foundation of our entire political and cultural structure in human civilization.

All this to say, our purpose here in proposing the Repatriation Protocol is to reestablish stability; technology; peace; safety; and prosperity to the Indep Worlds, rescuing the worst-off from the brink of dissolution and returning the more-borderline to fully functioning entities within the well-ordered House system of the NEE.

The intent is not to "benefit but a few at the cost of many most deeply affected by our current malaise" -- quite the opposite. We need to rescue the folk of worlds like Waypoint, Arielis, Serpens, and Wolf from the brink of starvation and disaster. We need to do it before they start launching concerted commerce raiding, or interdicting interstellar diplomatic travel, or before a madman in one of their militaries starts using fusion weaponry to support his coup.

We must repatriate these systems in an orderly and unequivocal fashion to restore their confidence in the NEE and its Houses. The Repatriation Protocol allows us to move forward on this with a clear and obvious adjudication method wherein this Assembly can legitimize or deny individual claims on the basis of their merits, so that individual Houses do not take it upon themselves to settle disagreements by means beyond diplomacy.

I hope the distinction is clearer to Lady Violet and to the delegation from House Suratte - in fact, not "foreign expansionism and a continuance of war," or an unchecked "competition between our noble Houses," but rather uplift for these independent and unrepresented worlds, is absolutely the intended outcome of the Repatriation Protocol.
House Suratte wrote: Let us all die of old age, fat and happy in our own beds.
Hear, hear! And let us afford the same privilege to as many human beings in known space as we can, even those whose fate was to fall on the wrong side of the Hegemony's collapse. Nay, especially those poor souls.

Thank you all for your time. House Phoenix awaits with great anticipation the outcome of the voting on each of these three Draft Laws.
Citizen Shareholder Landry Aigrette
Senior VP of Interstellar Affairs, Incorporated Republic of Phoenix
Ambassador, NEE Assembly - Arcturus Delegation, New Earth Empire
-Patrick
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Re: Glorious Stars Turn 1 Assembly Debates

Post by Takeyabue »

We must repatriate these systems in an orderly and unequivocal fashion to restore their confidence in the NEE and its Houses. The Repatriation Protocol allows us to move forward on this with a clear and obvious adjudication method wherein this Assembly can legitimize or deny individual claims on the basis of their merits, so that individual Houses do not take it upon themselves to settle disagreements by means beyond diplomacy.

I hope the distinction is clearer to Lady Violet and to the delegation from House Suratte - in fact, not "foreign expansionism and a continuance of war," or an unchecked "competition between our noble Houses," but rather uplift for these independent and unrepresented worlds, is absolutely the intended outcome of the Repatriation Protocol.
These words truly reflect the thoughts and wishes of House Suratte. Our hesitation comes for the inclusion of solely military methods in the proposed legislation. Why is the presence of an unopposed military fleet the only situation which would lead to this result. Surely the citizens inhabiting a struggling system would welcome the upgrade of a jump lane leading to their home system just as much, or perhaps even more, than the presence of a military force in orbit over their system? If one can lead to new bonds and alliances should not the other?

To truly uplift these systems substantial economic investment will need to be made. Why should this application of economic investment be forced to wait for the resolution of a military operation? Could the investment itself not indicate the true intent and desire of the house providing it?

Must the sole goal of enhancing the economic situation of our houses be to support the creation of more and better military forces? Are we truly so frightened that we find ourselves required to compete on military might alone? Must we repeat the failures of those who went before us?

House Suratte will remain unable to support the Independent System Repatriation Protocol without modification and will suggest the following amendment to any future voting on this or similar protocols.

=====================================

Independent System Reintegration Protocol

Any system lacking an Assembly delegation of its own shall, at the conclusion of a successful upgrade of a single jump lane by a House whose existing territory currently borders that system, be granted to that House as a new portion of its sovereign territory.

If and only if this system lies within the Prosperity Zone, the Assembly Chair has Veto Power over this declaration. Further, any House here represented may declare an Objection to this repatriation intent, in which case a full debate shall occur and a majority vote in favor must be counted to grant the repatriation (The Assembly Chair may Object without Vetoing, if so desired). Lack of Objection or Veto shall constitute approval from this Assembly for Repatriation of the System under this Protocol.

Local resistance after the repatriation under this Protocol shall be considered rebellion, and the newly-sovereign House shall be empowered by this Assembly to suppress such rebellion in accordance with NEE laws of war. (No WMDs, no direct assault on civilian Census, no targeting of Infrastructure or Shipyards, all reasonable efforts to avoid collateral damage, and [per the separate Peace and Prosperity Act, this clause to be stricken if that Act is repealed] no Assault ships used in planetary operations.)

Pieter van der Broecke
Factor Resident
House Suratte

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