Shipyards

[Tyrel Lohr]

In this latest in a series of information stellarcasts, I wish to start a discussion relating to shipyards and how they function in the VBAM campaign system.

The off the shelf, "one size fits all" solution in the book of a shipyard works in most situations (as one would expect from a "one size fits all" solution). With that rule, each shipyard has a total construction capacity equal to the location where its built and a number of dock spaces equal to the local Utilized Productivity.

That is all well and good, but it does create problems for those that want to build a shipyard at a small colony -- as the costs are the same as building them at a homeworld, but you get less benefit. A fair approximation of the costs involved, yea, but it has come under fire in the past.

I know Dan Waugh had some ideas for other shipyard solutions, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. What I do remember is that they got me to thinking about more modular shipyard solutions. What I have done since is break shipyards down so that you buy them one module at a time, with 10 modules being equal to 1 standard shipyard. Each module comes with 1 dock space and 1/10 its location's construction capacity. That allows you to slowly build up your shipbuilding infrastructure without breaking the bank. The cost of these modules has been 5 EP to build, and 1/5 to maintain.

However, while on vacation I started to wonder in relation to separating functions tied to special campaign unit into broad unit abilities if you couldn't separate the construction and dock space elements of a shipyard into separate abilities that could then be added to a unit as part of the design process?

What I tentatively came up with was to divide the functions into Construction and Dock abilities. Each point of Construction Rating provides 1 point of Construction Capacity for ship construction, and each point of Dock Rating provides 1 dock space for the same. This allows for easier scaling, and players could then customize their shipyards as they saw fit. The Construction ability then effectively replaces the old Mobile Construction ability, as units can be built with the Construction ability that are either mobile and immobile.

Now, this is another crazy camping idea, so I haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Thinking about it more, I am a bit worried about whether the Dock ability is really necessary or desirable or not, or if each shipyard should have a single dock space and have that just be it. That would cause problems for some shipyard facilities from various settings, however, so I have been resistant to doing that.

A side benefit of user-designed shipyard facilities is that it becomes a bit easier to implement a rule like Charlie came up with where you assigned specific ship building projects to shipyards, and retooling a shipyard would cost time/money to perform.

This kind of shipyard rule would definitely require extra bookkeeping; that I won't concede. However, I am intrigued as to whether or not it would force players to make some intensely interesting shipbuilding decisions. Do you build many smaller, cheaper shipyards that specialize in specific ship types, or do you build much larger shipyards so that you can build dreadnoughts at some point in time? And how many docks should they have? 1 each, to limit losses should the shipyard be attacked? Or build a massive shipyard complex so that it will be harder to completely destroy?

[logan400k]

I personally always liked the way Starfire did it. You build a space station with X number of shipyard modules and each module had X capacity but could only work on 1 ship or base or munition type in a given turn.

One idea I had while thinking is that docking space should remain as 1 per shipyard but Construction capacity might increase as more shipyards are added.

For example:

1 Shipyard at 1 Dock and X Construction Capacity
2 Shipyards at 2 Docks and X+X+1 Construction Capacity
3 Shipyards at 3 Docks and X + X + X + 2 Construction Capacity

This would represent efficiency of supplying multiple shipyards in the same place and better allocation of workers. I know the math is imperfect but I hope the concept comes through

[Tyrel Lohr]

Logan,

The example you outlined is pretty much exactly what I have been doing lately with my shipyard modules. In this case, your X variable I set at 1/10 Construction Capacity of the colony the shipyards were built at. The only difference is that I wasn't adding any bonuses for having multiple yards present -- though rounding about takes care of this I think.

Taking a look at the two, and using Sol (60 construction capacity) and X equal 1/10 capacity, we end up with:

Logan Example:
1 SY = 6 capacity
2 SY = 13 capacity
3 SY = 20 capacity
10 SY = 69 capacity

Tyrel Example:
1 SY = 6 capacity
2 SY = 12 capacity
3 SY = 18 capacity
10 SY = 60 capacity

So, as expected, the more shipyards you have the larger the bonus becomes and the greater the difference between the two options.

Switching gears, it just occurred to me that the greater argument in favor of divorcing shipyards from local construction capacity is so that yards could be built in hidden or secret locations of an empire -- within supply range, but not necessarily right in orbit of a planet, either. Babylon 5 had this happen both on the show (Victory class shipyards) and in the background material (the Narn hidden tech and shipyard facility). Star Trek and Star Wars I think also has some of these hidden types of facilities. To a limited degree, Battlestar Galactica also applies, in that the Pegasus had fighter construction facilities.

[logan400k]

When you do the math you see there is a risk/reward factor for having a large facility. Yes it is more vulnerable but the output is better.

To your switching gears, I think that shouldn't be a problem and I was contemplating it in one of two ways:

1. Increased maintenance for a facility that is off the grid, so a 1/5 becomes a 2/5

or

2. Because of distance only a fraction of the capacity of the patron planet as capacity because of the distances involved.

example (using a detailed system option) if planet 3 in system a is supporting a SY in orbit around plane 9 of system a, maybe only 75% capacity is available. If planet 3, system a is supporting a secret facility around planet 7, system c that might mean only 50% available capacity.

You could also impose both penalties and I think that would make a load of sense, but to be fair in that case if someone has a SY or other facility off the grid, finding it should be very difficult.

[jygro]

In a recent starmada/VBAM crossover, I made a shipyard into a ship size dock spaces. So, one of my empires had a dock space 5,5,10 capacity shipyard meaning it could build at most 3 ships, two of which had to be size 5 or smaller and the third size 10 or smaller.

I like the idea of making shipyards less dependant on the system it's located so any push from that is a good thing. Personally, I think being able to decide the number of dock spaces and the total capacity for any given shipyard is a step in the right direction.

-Bren

[Gareth_Perkins]

This is an idea that's been in the back of my mind a lot,

I really like it as a concept. Building shipyards is still going to be easier in high-population worlds (as long as you are using extended base construction),

[Rainer]

Interesting idea though the cost seems very high. If you have to pay 50 EP for 10 modules (which are equal to an old-style shipyard) it becomes very expensive.

[Gareth_Perkins]

You could set the cost lower though,

I don't use Starmada so the construction-type might need to be tweaked to be more generic,

How about something like this:

Shipyards are rated as: Destroyer, Cruiser, Battleship, Superdreadnought (or whatever suits your background). Each shipyard may only work on one hull at any one time,

A module is a single Destroyer level unit. Two destroyer units can be combined into a Cruiser unit, etc as decided when constructing the yard (you can't merge two completed units, only build them as expansions),

A module could cost around 8 EP or so, or perhaps 4 EP for a repair yard (6/3EP for non-orbital versions), with upkeep of 1/1 (+1 per module) - so an orbital cruiser yard would cost a total of 16EP and have an upkeep of 2/1

Things like freighters, troopships would need to be rated according to their size/complexity,

[Charles Lewis]

There are also the various shipyard options I proposed a while back and posted here:

http://forums.vbamgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=40

and here:

http://forums.vbamgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=41

I've used option #2 several times in the past and liked the decisions it forced on a player.

[nimrodd]

Taking a look at the two, and using Sol (60 construction capacity) and X equal 1/10 capacity, we end up with:

Logan Example:
1 SY = 6 capacity
2 SY = 13 capacity
3 SY = 20 capacity
10 SY = 69 capacity

Tyrel Example:
1 SY = 6 capacity
2 SY = 12 capacity
3 SY = 18 capacity
10 SY = 60 capacity

This works great for a homeworld, but not for smaller colonies. In a game I am in now, I have one world with Utilized Productivity 3, Raw 5, thus an output of 15. To use the Tyrel Example:
1 SY = 1 capacity
2 SY = 3 capacity
3 SY = 4 capacity
10 SY = 15 capacity

And thus there is no reason not to keep the shipyards the same as they are now.

I would change the ruling to be 1 Shipyard Module = 1 Dock + 6 capacity (or whatever 1/10 of your BASE HOMEWORLD OUTPUT is), so that I could build a reasonable shipyard of 3 Shipyard Modules to get 3 Dock/18 capacity at an outpost.

Repair Docks could then be 1 Repair Dock Module = 1 Dock + 3 capacity (or 1/20 of BASE HOMEWORLD OUTPUT). These would be 1/2 the cost of Shipyard Modules, but only be able to Repair, Upgrade or Mothball ships.

I would also say that these are Maximum Capacities. This would still limit the colonies to smaller shipyards, and thus in my example above, although the 3 Module Shipyard has a Max Capacity of 18, only 15 is useable at that system, per shipyard.

[nimrodd]

Another thing that might be looked at is how many Shipyards/Repair Docks (and even bases) can you have in a system. I don't believe there is a limit right now.

Currently, you can have multiple shipyards in a system, and each shipyard has a construction capacity equal to the output of the system/planet they orbit. In the current setup, this is probably okay, as you aren't going to be spending 20EP /shipyard to build them out on the rim, when for the same cost, you can put them at your homeworld and they have 3 or more times the docks and capacity.

But if we implement a Modular Shipyard system (at say 3EP per module), it might be worth building five 3 Module Shipyards (9EP x 5 = 45 EP) at that colony (Utilized Productivity of 3, Raw of 4, Output of 12; Total Shipyards Capacity = 60), that is 2 jumps from the front, rather than one 10 Module Shipyard (30 EP) at your Homeworld (Shipyard Capacity = 60) when it is 5 jumps from the front.

My suggestion is to limit the number of orbital facilities (this includes Bases, Shipyards & Repair Docks, but not Defsats or Mines) to Utilized Productivity with say a minimum of 1, which will take care of Tyrel's 0 Census Outpost and also allow a base in an unsettled system. Or possibly Utilized Productivity + 1.

[Tyrel Lohr]

My suggestion is to limit the number of orbital facilities (this includes Bases, Shipyards & Repair Docks, but not Defsats or Mines) to Utilized Productivity with say a minimum of 1, which will take care of Tyrel's 0 Census Outpost and also allow a base in an unsettled system. Or possibly Utilized Productivity + 1.

I am not sure I like hard limits, especially ones tied to inhabited system statistics. The major problem that I see is that, in some universes (Starfire especially), it is common for an empire to build a large number of fixed defenses at an uncolonized location (such as at a warp point, in Starfire's case).

If the intent is to nudge players in the direction of not placing a lot of fixed defenses at a location, my solution is to give such facilities Command Ratings and Costs like any other units and then only allow them to be placed into a single squadron during combat. If no suitable command unit is available for the defenses, a planet may serve this purpose with a Command Rating equal to Census + Utilized Productivity (making allowances for planets with lots of Census, but little Productivity -- agricultural planets, which could be common in campaigns using biosphere rules). This would limit the number of bases & satellites that could be deployed at a single time, thus making it easier for an enemy to pick off defenses at planets with small populations or poor command & control infrastructure.

The end result is effectively stil the same: the best defended planets will be larger, well-developed ones because they can field their fixed defenses more efficiently than smaller colonies (planets without colonies) can.

[Tyrel Lohr]

[quote="nimrodd"]I would change the ruling to be 1 Shipyard Module = 1 Dock + 6 capacity (or whatever 1/10 of your BASE HOMEWORLD OUTPUT is), so that I could build a reasonable shipyard of 3 Shipyard Modules to get 3 Dock/18 capacity at an outpost./quote]

If you're going to divorce a shipyard's capacity from that of its location, I would make it easier and just go 1 Dock + 5 Capacity instead; it is easier to calculate that way.

Of course, if you do divorce the two from each other I think that it would be just as well to just create a new unit ability that encompasses the function so that it can be used in a more versatile manner.

Personally, I am still leaning towards having Construction and Dock be separate variables that can be combined as desired, but having a Shipyard ability that is the 5/1 mix would be far easier to handle -- but comparatively limiting for designing some units that I can think of.

When it comes to naming a "definitive" outlook on shipyards, I have to say that I am heavily biased towards those from the Star Trek unvierse. There you have a mix of shipyard types; you have the standard shipyard that we have seen multiple times that holds a single ship of a given size -- essentially a shipyard with 1 dock space and a variable amount of construction capacity. At the same time, you also have behemoth starbases like Spacedock that appear to be able to do some ship construction themselves, and they have a great number of dock spaces and capacity to do it (the Hephaestes Station from Honor Harrington seems similar to Spacedock to me, given what it is setup for).

Another reason that I lean towards separating the two shipyard variables is that I think it would make it interesting for players to have to decide what is more important when designing/building shipyards: a yard with more capacity and fewer docks, or more docks and less capacity? It would force a player to commit to a certain type of naval doctrine, where now they can just build willy-nilly however they may please without any real thought going into their shipbuilding infrastructure. Now, I am not saying that it is a bad thing -- it does mean less micromanagement, which is a good thing. However, I also think it steals away an interesting (albeit maybe not important or ultimately desirable) decision point from the player.

[logan400k]

I think having some kind of limitation on shipyards is important because in our real world experiences, we know that capacity and general shipyard infrastructure plays a big role in the size of navy a nation can field. So I think there is an importance there.

[Charles Lewis]

But we're talking about space-borne facilities. While there are practical limits to how many shipyards could be squeezed into particular volume, when you have an entire solar system to work with, that volume is effectively limitless.

In Star Trek you have extensive shipyards at Earth and at Mars such that a significant proportion of total UFP military production is handled at those two locations - both in the same solar system.

If you're not concerned about a geosynchronous location to anchor your facility, you could just as easily plunk it down in the middle of nowhere and expand as far as required. A few navigational beacons, and voila, you're in business.

The only limitation to space-borne facilities should be what the player can afford to maintain.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm referring to any limitation on the number of facilities, not the capabilities of those facilities.