Help with alternate history 1936-1960

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echoco
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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby echoco » Thu May 26, 2011 12:43 am

mriddle wrote:I am not so sure.. remember Russia would way extended.. attacking an unbroken German army.. the result might be closer to WWI where the Russian attacked, got destroyed several times..

Germanay has interior lines, to rail troops east and west..


this is how it plays out in my head if Germany is in a two front war being on the receiving end and with Russian western factories still in operation and producing tanks and aircraft for SCW.
Germany would only have it's early light tanks to halt Russian advance and wouldn't have captures resources in Europe needed for war production. After that once Russia fully mobilize it'll heavily out Germany, learn from German tactics, attrition and resource would run dry for Germany and a matter of time before Germany fall. Britain and other countries might not have to do much except keep pressure on Germany.

I think early German success in WWII was mainly due to the element of surprise and initiative.

How about if it goes into this direction, Germany in a 2 front war, can't provide assistant to Italy, Italy eventually surrender to British force (having been reinforced by Indian and ANZAC troops) the whole thing last maybe until 1943 and isolated to Europe.

US involvement limited to some arms supplies being in a separate war with Japan.

Japan's course probably run about the same with Singapore (maybe Pearl Harbor but definitely Philippines bringing it into war with the US) but war in the pacific would end faster too since the US would put all it's effort into that war.
Everything over by 1943-4 and then an early cold war with three world powers Britain, Russia and US. with the US being the weakest, while Britain gained a few more colonies from Italy.

No US space program in the 60s, no real research into nuclear weapons (being halted at end of war but maybe resume during the cold war), computer, missile and jet technology develops slower.

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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby mriddle » Thu May 26, 2011 2:42 am

I think your way is not unreasonable (and probably LIKELY)..
But I think the other way is also plausible (though less likely)

Without US aid, and Germany in control of Gilbraltar, Germany/Italy could be a very tough place to take..
Because GB with out the US is not a threat.. Also if the BEF is not allowed to escape, the British Army is in much worse condition..

also alot of the Soviet population's support for the war was based on the German invasion and atrocities, so their willingness to commit more and more troops to unsuccessful war would be limited. and no lend/lease.. So the USSR may sue for peace after a couple of years..

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echoco
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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby echoco » Thu May 26, 2011 2:57 pm

mriddle wrote:also alot of the Soviet population's support for the war was based on the German invasion and atrocities, so their willingness to commit more and more troops to unsuccessful war would be limited. and no lend/lease.. So the USSR may sue for peace after a couple of years..


Good point, yet another spanner in the works hahahaha.
Do you think Stalinism would contribute to the Russia force fighting harder?

actually
pros/cons Russia opening second front with Germany
+ already involved in SCW and army quite ready for war
+ western factories operational
+ has the initiative
+ man power
+ Stalin has total control
- multiple isolate fronts (Spain, Germany, Mongolia)
- public support
- small navy
- Stalin's purge of the officer corp

Germany
+ Blitzkrieg tactics
+ Luftwaffe experience
+ ready for war
+ war production underway
+ Hitler has total control
- technology level not far developed
- war on 2 fronts/surrounded
- small navy fewer u boats (production probably ramp up quickly)
- limited resource

Britain
+ man power (India, Canada, ANZAC)
+ Radar
+ Asdic/sonar
+ large navy
+ limited US support
+ long range bombers
- scattered forces/isolated fronts
- public opinion?
- not mobilize/ready
- poor/obsolete equipment
- limited resource

anything else I missed? so far German would be a match for either Russia or Britain but not both.

I'd expect the US to send limited help, but mostly surplus equipment like the 4 stackers. Britain has more human resource in the form of India and ANZAC than Germany does and a bigger navy, everything else i think they are well matched.

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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby echoco » Mon May 30, 2011 2:11 pm

I quite the idea that WWII didn't happen, if Germany was attacked by the Russian. It would make for an interesting and probably more volatile cold war.

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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby MarkG88 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:21 pm

In Harry Turtledove's "The War that Came Early" series (where Chamberlain fights over Czechoslovakia) he has Spain as a sideshow with a Nationalist general running that factions forces in Spain other than Franco (based on the opening chapter I assume this fellow died on plane crash from Portugal to Spain but in this alt-history setting he survives).

Poland ends up a German ally (USSR invades) France and Britain hold onto France after losing Belgium and Netherlands and Czechoslovakia. And then in book three (titled "The Big Switch") he kills off Churchill (who was still only Navy Minister at this point) and has Britain and France ally with Germany vs. USSR.........that is a big twist of history I still have trouble swallowing.

Japan invaded USSR and took Vladivostok eventually and attacked USA at Pearl Harbor where we werent caught flatfooted and lost one BB and one CV while the Philippines look to get hammered in the next novel.

Amazon link for first book is:

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-War-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0345491823/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312992591&sr=8-1

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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby murtalianconfederacy » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:20 pm

Not really surprised about Turtledove allying Britain with Germany--he seems to do that in almost every book so far. Also not surprised he tries to make out a war between Britain and Germany in 1938 would end with Germany being victorious. Stopped reading him about five years ago.
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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby MarkG88 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:59 pm

I stopped buying him about that time period, still read him thanks to my local library. His historic novels are pretty good but I agree he's lost his touch on the alternate history genre.

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echoco
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Re: Help with alternate history 1936-1960

Postby echoco » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:12 am

Hullo, I have been dead, BRAIN DEAD. Too many things going on at once and this project pretty much stalled.

I've never read Turtledove, his alternate history books interests me some but I haven't made the leap. And if he really did ally Britain and Germany in his book I probably would not pick them up.


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