PTO Plane List

[Charles Lewis]

With MTO in Tyrel's hands becoming beautiful, I thought I'd post the current plane list for PTO for comment. Mostly, I want to make sure nothing significant is overlooked. These are listed in the order in which they become available.

Australia
A-20 Wirraway
A-46 Boomerang
These are going to posted as free promos after MTO's release

Japan
A2N2
B2M2
D1A3 "Susie"
B4Y1 "Jean"
E8N2 "Dave"
A4N1
Ki-10 "Perry"
Ki-2 "Louise"
G3M2 "Nell"
A5M2 "Claude"
Ki-27b "Nate"
D3A1 "Val"
A6M2 "Zero"
B4N2 "Kate"
Ki-21 IIb "Sally"
G4M1 "Betty"
Ki-45 "Nick"
A6M2-N "Rufe"
Ki-43 IIb "Oscar"
H8K2 "Emily"
Ki-44 IIb Shoki "Tojo"
Ki-46 "Dinah"
Ki-61 Hien "Tony"
D4Y1 Suisei "Judy"
B6N2 Tenzan "Jill"
J1N1 "Irving"
N1K1-J Shiden "George"
A6M5 "Zero"
J2M3 Raiden "Jack"

USA
A-12 Shrike
F-11C Hawk II
Gamma 2E
P-26A Peashooter
C-47 Dakota
PBY-5 Catalina
P-35
TBD-1 Devastator
F-68C Hawk III
V-11G
A-28 Hudson
P-36C Hawk
F2A-2 Buffalo
B-25B Mitchell
P-39C Airacobra
SBD-3 Dauntless
B-24D Liberator
P-40C Tomahawk
F4F-4 Wildcat
P-40F Kittyhawk
P-38F Lightning
A-26A Apache
B-17F Flying Fortress
B-26B Marauder
TBF Avenger
P-38G Lightning
A-20G Havoc
F6F Hellcat
P-39Q Airacobra
B-17G Flying Fortress
B-24J Liberator
P-47D Thunderbolt
P-63A Kingcobra
SB2C-1 Helldiver
P-51B Mustang
B-26G Marauder

Not counting the two Aussies, there are currently 65 aircraft scheduled for the PTO expansion.

[MarkG88]

Charlie,

Sorry to be a whiner.........but, I want the F4U-1 Corsair! The first two versions (F4U-1 from July 1942 with 2,400+ built and F4U-1A from April 1943 with 3,800+ built) technically make the 1943 cut off date for your MAS WWII time line.........and I grew up watching "Black Sheep Squadron"........and it's a really COOL plane!!!

-Mark

PS Here's a nifty website with WWII era stuff (nice layout, seems to use actual data from real books on the aircraft etc).

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/main.html#top

http://www.acepilots.com/planes/f4u_corsair.html

PPS And according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair (which had a rather good and well footnoted article btw), the F4U first saw action in February of 1943.........so I want one BADLY

[Rainer]

Just off the top of my head:

I'd include one of the Zero variants between the A6M2 and A6M5 (A6M3 or A6M3a). An A6M7 or A6M8 would also be fun or perhaps even an A7M2 Reppu.

If you want another floatplane the F1M2 Pete could be used.

If you want a late war Betty variant, there is the G4M2 (or G4M2e for okha bombing) version.

I'd also include the H6K4 Mavis alongside the Emilys as a searchplane.

Any reason why the Army divebombers are not included?

Ki-48 Lilys or Ki-49 Helens would also be additional army levelbombers. The Ki-67 Peggy is also a possibility (as it could carry a torpedo) as is the P1Y Frances. Both are later war designs.

The Ki-68 Frank would also be another fighter.

BTW it should be B5N2 Kate.

For the allied stuff:
B18 Bolo
A26B Invader
just for fun the B29 Superfortress
Brewster 339 D (I love the sucky early war fighters)
F4F3 Wildcat (there was quite a difference to the F4 version)
Martin 139 (Dutch bomber in the DEI)
OS2U-3 Kingfisher or SOC-3 Seagull
P61A Black Widow
Vildebeest IV (crappy torpedo bomber)
F4U-1 or F4U-1D Corsair

I'd vote at least to include some of the dutch planes.

Is there any additional British stuff you would like to include?

[Rainer]

BTW it would make sense to treat the IJN and IJAAF as two different factions. Their lack of cooperation and inter-service rivalry is astonishing.

[Charles Lewis]

The Corsair - there's a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes, I've seen the wikipedia entry - it was put into limited service in 1943 with land-based Marine units, but did not achieve full deployment until 1944. Don't get me wrong, I love the Corsair, too. However, given the teething problems, I'm not sure if the US would be allowing mercs access to the plane in '43 given the teething problems. Still it is a cool plane, so I'll see what I can do. It wouldn't be much of a set without one, now would it.

The original conversion method was based on planes statted out for Battleline/AH's Air Force - thanks to ongoing fan efforts, there are a lot of planes available, but there are holes - hence the odd gaps. However, it does complicate bringing in additional aircraft - however, it was accomplished in MTO, so I'm sure the list for PTO will grow.

For those that have missed earlier conversations, MAS-WWII cuts off at the end of 1943.

According to my information the A26B Invader didn't enter service until 11/44.

Rainer, in the case of those Japanese army bombers, I had insufficient info to fully stat them out at the time of the initial conversion. Same is true for the B-18 and some of the other aircraft on your list.

The Dutch are current slated to be in ETO, along with the Poles. At the moment, I have the D.XXI and G.1A stattted out (both fighters). While it makes sense to include them in PTO, there are space considerations. I'll have to see how many more planes for the Japanese and Americans get added before adding the Dutch.

All-in-all some interesting additions - I'll see what I can do about adding some of them.

[Charles Lewis]

BTW it would make sense to treat the IJN and IJAAF as two different factions. Their lack of cooperation and inter-service rivalry is astonishing.

You're right about that. It's a miracle that Japan accomplished what it did, really. However, I don't think there's a reason to incorporate that into MAS-WWII since the players represent mercenary squadrons. The inter-service rivalry just wouldn't be that much of a factor. More to the point, I'm not sure how that rivalry could be incorporated that makes sense and wouldn't overly complicate gameplay.

[Rainer]

The Corsair - there's a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes, I've seen the wikipedia entry - it was put into limited service in 1943 with land-based Marine units, but did not achieve full deployment until 1944. Don't get me wrong, I love the Corsair, too. However, given the teething problems, I'm not sure if the US would be allowing mercs access to the plane in '43 given the teething problems. Still it is a cool plane, so I'll see what I can do. It wouldn't be much of a set without one, now would it.

IIRC the Corsair operated on British carriers during the latter half of 43 as well. They actually used it before the USN.

Rainer, in the case of those Japanese army bombers, I had insufficient info to fully stat them out at the time of the initial conversion. Same is true for the B-18 and some of the other aircraft on your list.

What info would you need?

The Dutch are current slated to be in ETO, along with the Poles. At the moment, I have the D.XXI and G.1A stattted out (both fighters). While it makes sense to include them in PTO, there are space considerations. I'll have to see how many more planes for the Japanese and Americans get added before adding the Dutch.

From my POV it would make more sense to include them in PTO. In Europe they were a minor sideshow while the occupation of the DEI was the whole point of the Japanese attack.

[Rainer]

You're right about that. It's a miracle that Japan accomplished what it did, really. However, I don't think there's a reason to incorporate that into MAS-WWII since the players represent mercenary squadrons. The inter-service rivalry just wouldn't be that much of a factor. More to the point, I'm not sure how that rivalry could be incorporated that makes sense and wouldn't overly complicate gameplay.

Good question. Perhaps make planes from the other faction more expensive?

[Charles Lewis]

You're right about that. It's a miracle that Japan accomplished what it did, really. However, I don't think there's a reason to incorporate that into MAS-WWII since the players represent mercenary squadrons. The inter-service rivalry just wouldn't be that much of a factor. More to the point, I'm not sure how that rivalry could be incorporated that makes sense and wouldn't overly complicate gameplay.

Good question. Perhaps make planes from the other faction more expensive?

What I could do is to have the Japanese Navy and the Japanese Army as Campaign Sponsors rather than just Japan. This would give a bonus to either Navy or Army aircraft while working for them, as it does for any campaign sponsor. That would use the existing rules without adding a lot of additional overhead. I would just have to add a note to the aircraft entries indicating Army or Navy.

[Rainer]

That should not be too hard. If it has a Ki-XXX in its name, then it's army.

[Charles Lewis]

The Corsair - there's a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes, I've seen the wikipedia entry - it was put into limited service in 1943 with land-based Marine units, but did not achieve full deployment until 1944. Don't get me wrong, I love the Corsair, too. However, given the teething problems, I'm not sure if the US would be allowing mercs access to the plane in '43 given the teething problems. Still it is a cool plane, so I'll see what I can do. It wouldn't be much of a set without one, now would it.

IIRC the Corsair operated on British carriers during the latter half of 43 as well. They actually used it before the USN.

Good point. One way or the other, I'll get the Corsair in there.

Rainer, in the case of those Japanese army bombers, I had insufficient info to fully stat them out at the time of the initial conversion. Same is true for the B-18 and some of the other aircraft on your list.

What info would you need?

I'll do some digging, but what's missing is performance data, like maneuverability, climb and dive ability, etc. I didn't go looking originally, because I had data on a lot of planes (close to 200) anyway. However, even subjective or observational data would be useful. Basically, something I can use to compare it to one or more of the planes already converted to get a feel for what the stats ought to be. Since the MAS model is internally referent, at this point incorporating additional aircraft is more an art than a science.

The Dutch are current slated to be in ETO, along with the Poles. At the moment, I have the D.XXI and G.1A stattted out (both fighters). While it makes sense to include them in PTO, there are space considerations. I'll have to see how many more planes for the Japanese and Americans get added before adding the Dutch.

From my POV it would make more sense to include them in PTO. In Europe they were a minor sideshow while the occupation of the DEI was the whole point of the Japanese attack.

Oh, I agree completely, but like I said, it's more a matter of space - as in ETO is shrinking (though that will be offset to a degree by the big hoopty random campaign generator). Depending on how the size of PTO develops, I'll plan on including the Dutch unless they would put the total thing over the threshold of page count breakpoint. I could always put together a little Dutch freebie with a special campaign or two focused on the DEI if they won't fit into PTO directly.

[Rainer]

I'll do some digging, but what's missing is performance data, like maneuverability, climb and dive ability, etc. I didn't go looking originally, because I had data on a lot of planes (close to 200) anyway. However, even subjective or observational data would be useful. Basically, something I can use to compare it to one or more of the planes already converted to get a feel for what the stats ought to be. Since the MAS model is internally referent, at this point incorporating additional aircraft is more an art than a science.

That way?

Ki-30 Ann
ceiling: 28120 ft.
cruise speed: ~230 mph
maximum speed: ~260 mph
climb: ~1600 ft/min
2 7,7 mm MGs (1 front and 1 back)
4x 100 kg bombs

B18 Bolo
ceiling: 23900 ft
cruise speed: 167 mph
maximum speed: 215 mph
climb: ~1000 ft/min
3x 0.3" MGs
4x 500 lb bombs (though wiki lists a total load of 4500 lb)

[echoco]

Hi, thats a long list of aircraft.

reading the list the F8F came to mind but the 1943 cut off killed that idea

I agree that the IJN and IJAAF should be different factions

but the MAS I assume would only operate from land base so there shouldn't be too much difficulty in getting any plane from the same country.

but but I can also imagine the IJN and IJAAF making priority to supply their own people first so wouldn't want to supply MAS working for the other branch.

Are there going to be new ground/sea target stats for PTO?

Was reading up on F4Fs, didn't know USN F4F-3 didn't have folding wings

[Charles Lewis]

That way?

Ki-30 Ann
ceiling: 28120 ft.
cruise speed: ~230 mph
maximum speed: ~260 mph
climb: ~1600 ft/min
2 7,7 mm MGs (1 front and 1 back)
4x 100 kg bombs

B18 Bolo
ceiling: 23900 ft
cruise speed: 167 mph
maximum speed: 215 mph
climb: ~1000 ft/min
3x 0.3" MGs
4x 500 lb bombs (though wiki lists a total load of 4500 lb)

No. I often have that data already for the a/c not on the list. What I'm missing boils down to it not being done for the Air Force game, so I didn't have the interpreted values for things like roll rate. Basically, I have several entries in the original master list missing data for MAS stats of Climb, Maneuver, Evasive, Dive. Because of my original conversion process, I don't know what raw technical specs would really help, but I'll do some digging and see what I can come up with. Unfortunately, it's not really something where I can say: give me all the raw technical data for an aircraft, and I will give you the MAS stats for it.

[Charles Lewis]

Hi, thats a long list of aircraft.

reading the list the F8F came to mind but the 1943 cut off killed that idea

I agree that the IJN and IJAAF should be different factions

but the MAS I assume would only operate from land base so there shouldn't be too much difficulty in getting any plane from the same country.

but but I can also imagine the IJN and IJAAF making priority to supply their own people first so wouldn't want to supply MAS working for the other branch.

Are there going to be new ground/sea target stats for PTO?

Was reading up on F4Fs, didn't know USN F4F-3 didn't have folding wings

To keep things interesting, I do allow for carrier deployment as a possibility. There are a lot of unspoken assumptions in incorporating large-scale use of mercenary squadrons in WWII. One of them is that countries will hire mercs in situations where a carrier is the only way to get them to the target or to effectively deploy them for the purpose for which they were hired. The PTO expansion is key for that since the Commonwealth is the only source of carrier aircraft in MTO, and Japan and the US have a much wider variety of options.

All of the ground/sea targets were reworked for MTO. At this point, I don't see a need to change them or add additional ones, as they were generic enough (on purpose) to effectively fill in wherever needed.