New plane for the expansion?

[echoco]

Didn't mean to make it sound like a critism, it was my view on the possibility of having those aircraft available to private operators.

I'm not sure about how much this is the case but I imagine that having a larger proportion of higher tech aircraft means that stats for older aircraft gets compressed to make higher performers more distinctive. I got this impression from trying to figure out a stat for the A-4.

A question about the pilots, are these individual characters or are they abstract attributes for all the aircrew on aircraft like the F-4? I'm going to try run my first camapign with 2 pilots on two seater aircraft and use the best attributes from either one.

As for some ideas

rocket pods for marking targets, could give +1 AtG to follow on attacks or good against soft target having multiple shots like chaff/flare.

Base/runway size and max aircraft size it can operate. Planes like OV-1 and OV-10 that can take off from short runways.

I can't remember if there's one already but recce pods should be vital for recon missions.

NOE flying to avoid RADAR. Could be another altitude but require a roll on a table each turn, Crash, Close call - climb or success.

Taking missions/campaign from adjacent region, aircraft starts with 5 less fuel, makes air to air refuel more important.

[Charles Lewis]

Oh, I was taking it as a criticism, but I did want to take the opportunity to explain some of the rationale behind the game.

In essence, the pilot represents the entire crew of the aircraft, mostly for simplicity's sake. Let us know how your games go where you put two guys in an F-4. That could become a new optional rule!

As for aircraft stats, they are very subjective and internally referent. By that, I mean that the stats for MAS would not be compatible with the upcoming MAS-WWII. For example, for MAS-WWII, my benchmark aircraft were the Spitfire Mk. I and the Me-109E. All other aircraft were then compared to those two, and statted accordingly.

The stat range is relatively small, so the same range is used for different periods. This results in aircraft that are competitive with each other within their period, but the entire range of aircraft that may eventually get released will not be compatible with each other - no P-51s vs F-4s. We couldn't push the modern MAS envelope back much further than the Vietnam era as the aircraft just wouldn't be competitive, but in their own era, they were top of the line.

At some point, there could be a post-WWII expansion that would cover the late 40s to the 60's and bridge the gap between WWII and the modern era. In that era, a shiny new F-4 would be the best of the best, and something to aspire to. It's been discussed, but I have no idea if or when such a thing might be done.

Thanks for the suggestions and comments. Jay, take notes, please.

[MarkG88]

Hi echoco,

I was one of the playtesters for MAS (and currently working on MAS WWII MTO) I enjoy the older jets as well, one of my MAS pilots uses the optional specializtion rule so he gets max performance out of his F-4.

In case you didn't notice we do have a couple of "older" jets on the company website as well (A-7 and Mig-27):


http://blog.vbamgames.com/?cat=9

It's hard to find so I thought I'd post the link.

-Mark

[echoco]

MarkG88
I was planning to put A-7s into good use but being more expensive than the F-4 I had to pass out on them.

I'm planning on using the "specialization" skill for most my pilots once they accumulate enough experience to use them. Also using every other dogfight optional rules but no one used an evasive maneuver yet.

I'm also using 2 pilots on an F-4 for realism and I found pretty inefficient because of the high mission cost of having 4 pilots in 3 aircrafts. Good thing I had 1 regular and 3 green pilots, more experienced pilots would bleed my MAS dry in a few missions. The F-4 was more potent with 2 pilots though, 1 concentrating on aircraft skills and the other on weapon skills, equivalent to having more experience pilot flying it.

Another problem was experience allocation, either dividing by number of pilots (the F-4 gain experience alot faster than other planes) or by number of planes (F-4 pilots develop slower also have to divide experience even further between the 2).

Also I found that having pilot skills on the same sheet as the aircraft stats speed up game play alot, so maybe in future release there could be blank area next to the aircraft climb, evasive.... stats for the aircraft pilot/s stats.

[MarkG88]

MarkG88
I was planning to put A-7s into good use but being more expensive than the F-4 I had to pass out on them.

I'm planning on using the "specialization" skill for most my pilots once they accumulate enough experience to use them. Also using every other dogfight optional rules but no one used an evasive maneuver yet.

I'm also using 2 pilots on an F-4 for realism and I found pretty inefficient because of the high mission cost of having 4 pilots in 3 air crafts. Good thing I had 1 regular and 3 green pilots, more experienced pilots would bleed my MAS dry in a few missions. The F-4 was more potent with 2 pilots though, 1 concentrating on aircraft skills and the other on weapon skills, equivalent to having more experience pilot flying it.

Another problem was experience allocation, either dividing by number of pilots (the F-4 gain experience alot faster than other planes) or by number of planes (F-4 pilots develop slower also have to divide experience even further between the 2).

Also I found that having pilot skills on the same sheet as the aircraft stats speed up game play alot, so maybe in future release there could be blank area next to the aircraft climb, evasive.... stats for the aircraft pilot/s stats.

It makes sense that the F-4 would be more potent with a 2 man crew, but I'd be worried about losing 2 pilots at once, they are both expensive to replace in money and the time it takes to develop them so there is a trade-off no matter what you do. But it is a fun system. I like developing my pilots and see how they turn out. I've always used the +3 Xp "ace" bonus (with corresponding AtA or AtG unique attribute) those unique attributes btw, tend to make a good MAS better.

Right now in my WWII MAS, I've got 1 elite, 3 veteran and 1 experienced pilot so the salary costs are high, luckily on of my vets and my elite pilot rolled leadership and administrative attributes that eliminate a single pilots salary so I'll start getting ahead money-wise (until someone gets shot down etc lol). It's a simple game to learn but there are many ways to approach a MAS, what type of aircraft, pilot speciality etc. I look forward to playing it with my gamer buddies in Indiana (we get together 2-3 times a year). Enjoy the game and keep posting your suggestions, Jay and Charlie want to make a good product (MAS and its expansions) even better.

[echoco]

I totally agree that this game is fun.

Funny that you should mention the balance between capability of a fully crewed F-4 and loosing the pilots. I've only used 2 crew on the F-4 once and that was because everyone got shot down except my XO who single handedly wiped out 3 MiG-21s with cannons, and he was green.

I think most of my suggestions lean towards realism which doesn't really blend in with the game, but I got some more anyway.

Loaded aircraft - aircraft loaded with AtG weapons cross out 1 fuel for every hard points with AtG weapons (higher take off weight/drag) at the beginning of the mission. Alternatively, just cross out 2 fuel for any amount of AtG weapons. Adds a bit more planning to each ground attack mission.

Aircraft availability for different region in World of MAS could also double $ for repair if the aircraft is not available/used locally (lack of spares) eg. Tornado in South America.

[Charles Lewis]

I totally agree that this game is fun.

And that's the important part. You're having fun!

[mwaschak]

Welcome to the group EchoCo!

Sorry about my delay in response. I broke my foot, which put a damper on not only responding to various VBAM games and correspondence, but some other work I had planned to post here this week.

You make a good point that a lot of these planes, some of which are older, available, and easy to maintain. I have been using the Crusader more and more in my games, and I had not planned to release that original. I have been pleased to see that a lot of players prefer the older planes. One idea I saw emailed to me was doubling the prestige needed to get the next rarity level. This makes the low ends planes very important as the higher level gear will be very tough to get, and keep the MAS economical (lots of good pilots cost money).

This is also several years in the future where we assume better planes are on the way, some governments try to wash their hands of problems by outsourcing the dirty work, and made sure their favorites can get that dirty work done.

I actually cut quite a few planes now that I think of it, including transports and the Phoenix variant of the F-111. With so many variants out there, we are going to have a lot of planes to explore. One of the goals in Worlds of MAS, which was already discussed, is adding some regional influence to the equation. Perhaps flying out of Asia means that Russia parts and supplies are more available? There will be more logistical concerns, like where are you pilots and what resources are available per region. I need to work out the details, but the work is in progress. Charlie said it best that this kind of game is new for us so we want to make sure deliver a good, well researched, and well tested game.

If you get a chance please keep us posted on your own campaign. We are always starting new games here and I am sure you could find more than one campaign to join or participate in if you like playing by email.

Please send us any requests or further ideas you have. Like Charlie said, if you are having fun then great. We can always improve, and pepper the game with more optional rules to suit each style of play.

Great discussion guys!

-Jay

[echoco]

I have a few questions about the dogfighting. Ive re-read the rules several times and with my brain being dead after a long day at work I'm still confused or maybe I missed something.

The rules says something along the line of if a flight moves into a band that already has another flight engaged with bogies then it joins in the engagement. Does this mean that a flight can move everyturn of the dog fight?
Say there are 2 flights with #1 in band 1 and #2 in band 2. If #2 is in an engagement for more than 1 turn, can flight#1 move during (at end of) those turns (and use fuel) or does it stay at band 1 until the engagement is resolved (without using fuel)?

When engaging a target, does the engaging aircraft roll its action against the target's maneuver action all the time or against what ever action the target takes if its taken an action already.
Plane #1 engage plane #2 #2 took an action earlier and climbed does #1 roll against #2 climb to engage?

Also if an engaging aircraft succeed, it and the target moves into close range, what if it fails? Does the engaging aircraft into close range while the target stay at long range?

Thanks

[mwaschak]

You are thinking on the right lines. Every turn is still a game turn so during a dogfight the other planes that are up in the air. In your example if two Wings are the air, Wing #2 advances to Band 2 and is engaged. Wing #1 hangs back in Band 1, maybe to snap of a few ranged shots or just to avoid trouble. Turns are consistant and still pass as normal which means Wing #1 is burning up fuel each turn.

In response to the second question, the comparison is based on whatever action is set on that plane. Here is where the initiative is important. If one of my planes is set to Manevuer at the start of the turn, and a bogey engages it, it will face that Maneuver action. But on that pilot's turn I set it to Climb, the next turn that same bogey (who is going first) must compare against Climb action for pilot and plane.

So what you have is at least a full turn where a pilot has to deal with the consequences of those "actions". This also plays well to the strengths of a plane. If I have a plane with a great power plant I may be better suited to Climb, and let the bandits deal with the strength of that plane.

With regard to engaging this depends if you were attempting to dogfight (which forces the engagement roll). If you did, and succeed, both planes are drawn to Close Range. Otherwise the engager is just drawn in.

I hope that helps. Please let me know if I can clarify further!

Have a good day, and Merry Christmas all!
-Jay

[Heckmac]

Crusader? Did someone say Crusader? I missed it. Is it in the MAS plane list?

- Charlie

[andstrauss]

Another objective is to add more of the trainer/light attack planes from around the world. Jay is sitting on a good source of lesser known attack aircraft (I know, because I gave it to him ) from Romania, Yugoslavia and elsewhere, that will provide more (and cheaper) options.

Just could not resist:
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com.br ... origin.asp

Here's my pick for one Trainer/light attack.



Cheers,

[mwaschak]

Crusader? Did someone say Crusader? I missed it. Is it in the MAS plane list?

It will be in the expansion for sure. I just ran out of space .

We did add some extra bonus aircraft (MiG-27 and A-7) to the site. Did you see those yet?

-Jay

[mwaschak]

Another objective is to add more of the trainer/light attack planes from around the world. Jay is sitting on a good source of lesser known attack aircraft (I know, because I gave it to him ) from Romania, Yugoslavia and elsewhere, that will provide more (and cheaper) options.

Just could not resist:
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com.br ... origin.asp

Here's my pick for one Trainer/light attack.



Cheers,

Yeah, why not. It would be easy to maintain, and probably cheap to fly by comparison.

The more and more I look, the more variants and other regional aircraft that are used in their particular military niche. This expansion could get huge very easily.

-Jay

[Heckmac]

Any other teasers of planes in the expansion? A-4? F-18E/F?

Obviously based on my interest in the Crusader, I'm a fan of the 60's era planes... F-105?

I did see the A-7 card, thanks for that!

- Charlie