I had a thought to make population increase be the main reason to 'explore' the universe around you in an upcoming solo game (pending I find the time). Basically, work around the fact that since the human race is continously over-populating earth, why can't it be a focus for a game.
To that end, each planet/system that had census would increase at a certain 'population increase' chosen by the player (or pick randomly: 2d6). I had thought to do it turnly, but I think for sanity sake it will be every 3 turns (quarterly). I'm thinking of making census reported into the hundredths for this game so that the low percentages don't all mash together.
Example: A player has determined 5% to be the Population growth modifier (PGM) and on his homeworld that has 10.0 census, for turn 4, his homeworld would have 10.50 census (imagine if the PGM was 12% - it's now ar 11.20 census). 10.01 is considered over 10 for overpopulation rules and the like, but the whole number of census is used for calucaling output and such.
I think the PGM would even out in time. A player that is activity exploring wouldn't have many issues on the increasing population (except the amount of possible paperwork) and would still have to buy and use colony fleets (30 EP) to move census around. Perhaps a ruling that states a system/planet with a census below 3 doesn't have to grow (too worried about survival). In this game, you couldn't make colony fleets that include census so the value that you chose for you PGM is quite important. To lower or raise your PGM could be done, but requires the completion of a direct tech research.
My current issue is since VBAM doesn't have any requirements for 'housing' population, a player could put some population on a high capacity world and never 'colonize' it (increase the productivity) and keep their population expanse under control. I guess they would eventually have to keep that population under guard to keep from rebellions, but since there isn't any productivity on the planet, it might not be a big issue (I haven't re-read the rebellion or overpopulation rules yet so it might be covered there). I was thinking about spliting productivity and housing to two separate costs, but I haven't yet figured out a way to do it cleanly.
That's my thoughts at the moment. Anyone got any insight?
-Bren
Ever expanding population?
Hi Bren. You raise some interesting points in regards to census growth. But there are some key points to the basic vbam rules missing from your assumptions:
Also, colony fleets don't automatically build productivity under the vbam rules: according to 3.8.5 (CG) a colony fleet moves census and results in a new system with morale 1 and census 1 while productivity and intel are both at 0. All the optional quick colonization rules (4.8 in CG) do is add a census to the fleet when built without having to subtract census from existing system. The colony fleet is consumed when this new colony is formed.
The incremental growth system of a "maxed out" system you suggest is interesting, however, and having it affect both morale (negatively) and productivity (positively assuming morale is >= 50% of census number aka system in good order) works for me. This is especially true if you're dealing with a campaign of "old core systems" which would have high populations and limited opportunities to siphon off the surplus census without a massive exploration and colonization effort on the "frontier".
-Mark
A lack of productivity on system is a BIG issue. According to the Morale Check Chart (under rule 3.8.3) statesMy current issue is since VBAM doesn't have any requirements for 'housing' population, a player could put some population on a high capacity world and never 'colonize' it (increase the productivity) and keep their population expanse under control. I guess they would eventually have to keep that population under guard to keep from rebellions, but since there isn't any productivity on the planet, it might not be a big issue (I haven't re-read the rebellion or overpopulation rules yet so it might be covered there). I was thinking about spliting productivity and housing to two separate costs, but I haven't yet figured out a way to do it cleanly.
That's my thoughts at the moment. Anyone got any insight?
-Bren
so this means have a system with large census and 0 productivity as you stated in your suggestion will result in a rebellious/independent system sooner or later.Productivity is at 0 and Census is greater than 3 (representing lack of jobs and self sufficiency) - Cumulative -1 morale
Also, colony fleets don't automatically build productivity under the vbam rules: according to 3.8.5 (CG) a colony fleet moves census and results in a new system with morale 1 and census 1 while productivity and intel are both at 0. All the optional quick colonization rules (4.8 in CG) do is add a census to the fleet when built without having to subtract census from existing system. The colony fleet is consumed when this new colony is formed.
The incremental growth system of a "maxed out" system you suggest is interesting, however, and having it affect both morale (negatively) and productivity (positively assuming morale is >= 50% of census number aka system in good order) works for me. This is especially true if you're dealing with a campaign of "old core systems" which would have high populations and limited opportunities to siphon off the surplus census without a massive exploration and colonization effort on the "frontier".
-Mark
Granted, I give you that (as I remember that from the morale rules), but this is what I'm worried about; you have a rebellion/independent system on a capacity 15 raw 1 hostile world. So what? Let them go into rebellion. What is a world that can only generate 15 EP a month going to do really? Better still, let them go independent and then send WMDs to destory them all with no real morale issues (unless the act is discovered). Better still, place a census in a transport fleet and send them out of supply until the ship in question is destroyed. I'm devious and would do the above two things so there has to be a counter in the ruleset. I guess if there was a "wonton destruction clause" that if your population 'finds out' about the killing of innocent census by the government, all planets/systems of that nation that a morale penalty followed by a moralte check... That would curb the issue...MarkG88 wrote:Hi Bren. You raise some interesting points in regards to census growth. But there are some key points to the basic vbam rules missing from your assumptions:
A lack of productivity on system is a BIG issue. According to the Morale Check Chart (under rule 3.8.3) states "Productivity is at 0 and Census is greater than 3 (representing lack of jobs and self sufficiency) - Cumulative -1 morale" so this means have a system with large census and 0 productivity as you stated in your suggestion will result in a rebellious/independent system sooner or later.
Right, you have to buy the productivity separately that I realize, but my thought was to make the "Environmental Domes" that the census need to be housed in cost a fair amount as well as building the productivity. Thinking about this more, I think that I will expand the penalties for the lack of productivity on a world (neighboring systems get a morale panalty if a nation is over populated or under-worked) and leave it at that...Also, colony fleets don't automatically build productivity under the vbam rules: according to 3.8.5 (CG) a colony fleet moves census and results in a new system with morale 1 and census 1 while productivity and intel are both at 0. All the optional quick colonization rules (4.8 in CG) do is add a census to the fleet when built without having to subtract census from existing system. The colony fleet is consumed when this new colony is formed.
-Bren
Last edited by jygro on Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bren,
Interesting discussion! My thoughts based on your last set of comments (second things first hehe):
As a CM I'd restrict this kind of "census exploitation" to certain government types (despots and hives come to mind, democracies/confederations wouldn't stand for this sort of blatant abuse).
As for me, I want to come up with other uses for census besides "just factory workers". An optional rule I've been mulling is R&D infrastructure which would have same costs as productivity (R&D 1 = 10 EP, R&D 2 = 20 EP etc) but would allow "surplus" (non-factory workers) population to do cool research things adding a bonus to the empire's technology research. Based on which particular type of technology rules were in use I'd make the R&D modified by the base productivity (more industry allows for more and better computers, labs, etc to support advanced research).
Say you have system with Census 8, Productivity 4, (RAW 4). It has 4 "slots" available for R&D infrastructure. So some surplus EPS are invested and the system now has R&D 3. So this system will produce 16 EP (RAW 4 x Productivity 4) and 12 "tech points" (based on Productivity 4 x R&D 3) per turn. If you were using the Campaign Guide's basic tech rules, you could still add EPs to increase the "tech year" (represents overtime, bonuses, more computers etc) to add to the R&D rate produced.
This all comes out of me seeing a system with potential census of 6+ and a RAW of 3 or less, you'll never have high productivity here so it seems like a "waste" of population resources. And I played Masters of Orion (I & II) many an hour so I like tossing people from the factory to the lab as needed.
-Mark
Interesting discussion! My thoughts based on your last set of comments (second things first hehe):
I really like the idea of affecting neighboring systems morale and a more severe penalty for "welfare state status" (high census, low productivity).Right, you have to buy the productivity separately that I realize, but my thought was to make the "Environmental Domes" that the census need to be housed in cost a fair amount as well as building the productivity. Thinking about this more, I think that I will expand the penalties for the lack of productivity on a world (neighboring systems get a morale panalty if a nation is over populated or under-worked) and leave it at that...
Not only are you devious, but ruthless as well (meant as a compliment I assure you).about; you have a rebellion/independent system on a capacity 15 raw 1 hostile world. So what? Let them go into rebellion. What is a world that can only generate 15 EP a month going to do really? Better still, let them go independent and then send WMDs to destory them all with no real morale issues (unless the act is discovered). Better still, place a census in a transport fleet and send them out of supply until the ship in question is destroyed. I'm devious and would do the above two things so there has to be a counter in the ruleset. I guess if there was a "wonton destruction cause" that if your population 'finds out' about the killing of innocent census by the government, all planets/systems of that nation that a morale penalty followed by a moralte check... That would curb the issue...
As a CM I'd restrict this kind of "census exploitation" to certain government types (despots and hives come to mind, democracies/confederations wouldn't stand for this sort of blatant abuse).
As for me, I want to come up with other uses for census besides "just factory workers". An optional rule I've been mulling is R&D infrastructure which would have same costs as productivity (R&D 1 = 10 EP, R&D 2 = 20 EP etc) but would allow "surplus" (non-factory workers) population to do cool research things adding a bonus to the empire's technology research. Based on which particular type of technology rules were in use I'd make the R&D modified by the base productivity (more industry allows for more and better computers, labs, etc to support advanced research).
Say you have system with Census 8, Productivity 4, (RAW 4). It has 4 "slots" available for R&D infrastructure. So some surplus EPS are invested and the system now has R&D 3. So this system will produce 16 EP (RAW 4 x Productivity 4) and 12 "tech points" (based on Productivity 4 x R&D 3) per turn. If you were using the Campaign Guide's basic tech rules, you could still add EPs to increase the "tech year" (represents overtime, bonuses, more computers etc) to add to the R&D rate produced.
This all comes out of me seeing a system with potential census of 6+ and a RAW of 3 or less, you'll never have high productivity here so it seems like a "waste" of population resources. And I played Masters of Orion (I & II) many an hour so I like tossing people from the factory to the lab as needed.
-Mark
Thanks!MarkG88 wrote:Not only are you devious, but ruthless as well (meant as a compliment I assure you).
I think that all government types should have to deal with the population issue with some form of 'morale' issue. Perhaps those government types that the "census exploitation" wouldn't command a morale penalty have a production penalty (add cool technobabble here).As a CM I'd restrict this kind of "census exploitation" to certain government types (despots and hives come to mind, democracies/confederations wouldn't stand for this sort of blatant abuse).
This idea has some merit and I've always thought of a different point total than EP for research, but never really worked on something. Now that you brought it up, I might have to think about it more...As for me, I want to come up with other uses for census besides "just factory workers". An optional rule I've been mulling is R&D infrastructure which would have same costs as productivity (R&D 1 = 10 EP, R&D 2 = 20 EP etc) but would allow "surplus" (non-factory workers) population to do cool research things adding a bonus to the empire's technology research. Based on which particular type of technology rules were in use I'd make the R&D modified by the base productivity (more industry allows for more and better computers, labs, etc to support advanced research).
Ahh, MOO 2... I lost a bunch of hours playing that game!
-Bren