2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Check here for updates and discussion about the new edition of the Victory by Any Means Campaign System.
wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Wed May 23, 2012 2:09 am

Turn 13:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11KJ ... NW4rU/edit
Turn 14:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zEu ... SsGAo/edit

Turn 13- 2448.03
Still building up Altair, and the colonization of Sirius is underway, even though it is a less attractive colonization candidate now that half of it’s neighbors are Black Holes! Also trying to catch up on research, one problem with rapid Census expansion is that the tech cost is getting away from me.

Exploration Checks:
1st Exploration Constellation: Moving to Barnard’s Star
2nd Exploration Constellation: 15 Scout total, +3 Bonus
Roll = 9 + 3 = 12, Jump Lane Mapped!

Morale Checks:
Sol System: Good Order, Roll = 1, -1 Morale
Barnard’s Star: Good Order, Roll = 8, no change
Lalande: Good Order, Roll = 2, no change
Alpha Centauri: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change
Altair: Good Order, Roll = 10, +1 Morale

Piracy Checks:
Sol System: 5% (Trade Route) - 12% (12 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 96, no Pirate attack
Lalande: 5% (Trade Route) - 4% (4 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 81, no Pirate attack


Emerging Empire Checks:
Accumulated turns without successful exploration roll: 5%
Roll = 79, no Emerging Empire

Turn 14- 2448.04
Finally mapped the direct lane to Alpha Centauri from Sol so I will start building up the colony there again as well as building up Sirius. Overall things are pretty quite.

Exploration Checks:
1st Exploration Constellation: 15 Scout total, +3 Bonus
Roll = 10 + 3 = 13, Jump Lane Mapped!
2nd Exploration Constellation: Moving to Sol

Morale Checks:
Sol System: Good Order, Roll = 1, -1 Morale
Barnard’s Star: Good Order, Roll = 6, no change
Lalande: Good Order, Roll = 2, no change
Alpha Centauri: Good Order, Roll = 4, no change
Altair: Good Order, Roll = 10, +1 Morale
Sirius: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change

Piracy Checks:
Sol System: 5% (Trade Route) - 12% (12 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 89, no Pirate attack
Lalande: 5% (Trade Route) - 4% (4 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 56, no Pirate attack


Emerging Empire Checks:
Accumulated turns without successful exploration roll: 5%
Roll = 7, no Emerging Empire


New Star System Generation (Luyten)
System Type Roll = 8, Binary Star System
Spectral Class Roll = 7, Class K Orange Star
Luminosity Class Roll = 10, IV Sub-Giant
Carrying Capacity = 6, 6 CAP
Raw = 7, 2 RAW
Biosphere = 3, 0 BIO
Jump Lanes = 3, 1 Lanes (1 back to Barnard’s Star), +1 for existing lane to Scylla

System Specials:
9 = +2 CAP
12 = Special Resource
Roll = 7, Intel Special Resource

Screen Shot 2012-05-22 at 10.00.43 PM.png
Screen Shot 2012-05-22 at 10.00.43 PM.png (49.24 KiB) Viewed 2588 times


Well, Luyten is sort of bummer-marginal system and no additional jump lanes around the hypermass wall that way! Debating whether I should concentrate in Altair to try to find a way around that way or just try to brute force my way through one of the black hole systems. Decisions, decisions!

Did I do the jump lanes correctly in Luyten? I presume that if we know X jump lanes lead to a uncharted system, then that system has to have at least X jump lanes- if I rolled under the known number of lanes then I just increase it?

Also a close call on the emerging empire roll, it's going to catch me one of these times fairly soon I think.

Also just noted that Altair should be marked as colonized, I'll fix that next update.

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."
-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Wed May 23, 2012 3:09 am

wminsing wrote:Well, Luyten is sort of bummer-marginal system and no additional jump lanes around the hypermass wall that way! Debating whether I should concentrate in Altair to try to find a way around that way or just try to brute force my way through one of the black hole systems. Decisions, decisions!


I think developing Altair and beyond is probably the most realistic option at this point. I think in your position I would wait to explore beyond Vortex and Scylla until you had some large CC 2+ scouts with 2 FTL available so that you could move in and quickly bore through to the other side and then spread out from there. With a supply depot in Sirius you could then have enough supply to explore a bit through the other end.

There's also still hope that the one unexplored lane to the north of Altair could circle back to the Vortex chain. That gives you another possible access point.

Did I do the jump lanes correctly in Luyten? I presume that if we know X jump lanes lead to a uncharted system, then that system has to have at least X jump lanes- if I rolled under the known number of lanes then I just increase it?


Yeah, you did it right. Similarly, if a system is supposed to have additional jump lanes and all of the systems nearby have been explored those jump lanes are just discarded. In that case, I've flirted with giving the systems +1 special trait for each jump lane that it can't attach. Now, we could do the reverse for systems that roll too many jump lanes: roll a special trait and remove that from the system, but I don't really want to do that as it seems a bit unfair to the player.

Also a close call on the emerging empire roll, it's going to catch me one of these times fairly soon I think.


Yep, you're going to have someone come in pretty soon. What I did in that case is assign each unexplored lane a number and rolled to see which one the aliens came in through. Best case for you is the aliens coming in to Vortex or Scylla. Worst case is Lalande, as that would put them right on your border. Connecting to Altair is also not the best outcome, but hopefully it wouldn't cut you completely off.

Also as a note, since I need to rework the strategic resource modifiers after recent rule changes, the intel resource should just give spies a bonus. Probably +50% offensive intel to missions performed from the system, +50% defensive intel in the system. Round up in both cases. That way having 2 spies perform a mission from Luyten would be the same as 3 spies. Similarly, the system would have 3 defensive intel instead of just 2.
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Wed May 23, 2012 12:31 pm

I think developing Altair and beyond is probably the most realistic option at this point.


Agreed, and I already had a bit of success in the next few turns I'll post soon. I have been VERY lucky with exploration rolls in this campaign.

Yeah, you did it right.


Cool. I would not worry giving/subtracting specials to be honest- the maximum number of jump lanes isn't always a benefit to begin with.

Yep, you're going to have someone come in pretty soon.


I think so. That's another reason to give up on the Black Hole systems for now and explore 'west' a little more, to push my frontier out and give me a little more room in case the aliens turn out to the be hostile. Right now I have no particular strategic depth on that frontier.

I also got the hex background, thank you! Unfortunately the 'background' in yEd appears to be just that, a picture imposed behind the graph. So when I zoom/drag the graph the systems and the hexes get out of synch every time. However, it IS useful for doubling checking system alignment, so I think it will have use. Thank you!

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Wed May 23, 2012 12:38 pm

Turn 15:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ai7 ... OWW0I/edit
Turn 16:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u6T ... Vu0dY/edit

Also realized it wouldn't hurt to show off the Empire sheet from time to time:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 181MFN3X0E


Turn 15- 2448.05
Just building up my colonies this turn, and putting in some serious tech investment to try to finally get that 1st tech level.

Exploration Checks:
1st Exploration Constellation: Moving to Barnard’s Star
2nd Exploration Constellation: Moving to Altair

Morale Checks:
Sol System: Good Order, Roll = 7, no change
Barnard’s Star: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change
Lalande: Good Order, Roll = 4, no change
Alpha Centauri: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change
Altair: Good Order, Roll = 4, no change
Sirius: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change

Piracy Checks:
Sol System: 5% (Trade Route) - 12% (12 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 98, no Pirate attack
Lalande: 5% (Trade Route) - 4% (4 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 40, no Pirate attack


Emerging Empire Checks:
Accumulated turns without successful exploration roll: 6%
Roll = 7, no Emerging Empire


Turn 16- 2448.06
I’m actually end up with more money than I know what to do with; time to start expanding the Commonwealth Star Navy!

Exploration Checks:
1st Exploration Constellation: Moving to Sol
2nd Exploration Constellation: 15 Scout total, +3 Bonus
Roll = 12 + 3 = 15, Jump Lane Mapped!

Morale Checks:
Sol System: Good Order, Roll = 3, no change
Barnard’s Star: Good Order, Roll = 2, no change
Lalande: Good Order, Roll = 1, -1 morale
Alpha Centauri: Good Order, Roll = 9, no change
Altair: Good Order, Roll = 1, -1 morale
Sirius: Good Order, Roll = 2, no change

Lalande is in revolt!

Piracy Checks:
Sol System: 5% (Trade Route) - 12% (12 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 49, no Pirate attack
Lalande: 5% (Trade Route) - 4% (4 ships or flights in system) = 1% (min)
Roll = 29, no Pirate attack


Emerging Empire Checks:
Accumulated turns without successful exploration roll: 6%
Roll = 79, no Emerging Empire

New Star System Generation (Sigma Draconis)
System Type Roll = 5, Single Star System
Spectral Class Roll = 5, Class F White Star
Luminosity Class Roll = 9, IV Sub-Giant
Carrying Capacity = 8, 6 CAP
Raw = 3, 1 RAW
Biosphere = 9, 3 BIO
Jump Lanes = 6, 3 Lanes (1 back to Altair)

System Specials:
11 = +2 BIO
10 = +2 RAW
9 = +2 CAP

Chance of prewarp natives = 8 x 5 = 40% chance
Roll = 49, no natives

Screen Shot 2012-05-23 at 8.37.17 AM.png
Screen Shot 2012-05-23 at 8.37.17 AM.png (53.13 KiB) Viewed 2578 times


So Lalande is in revolt!! Well, it has 0 census so it is more of a miner's strike I guess. Time to brush up on the Rebellion rules.

Sigma Draconis is a great find though- good system and well worth developing, plus perhaps a way around The Vortex.

-Will
Last edited by wminsing on Wed May 23, 2012 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Wed May 23, 2012 3:31 pm

Ok, reviewed the Rebellion rules, looking for a little guidance.

First, Lalande is a 0 Census, nil infrastructure system- I never needed the colony for anything more than extracting the trade resource that doesn't need any infrastructure that I could see. So Lalande will get D6 x 0 EP in Rebel units, so 0 units. The rebels are going to have a little trouble getting off the ground.

BUT, it says that Rebellions succeed if there are no loyalist ground units present during the Morale phase. It was the morale phase, Lalande lost 1 morale and revolted, no loyalist units on the ground. So does Lalande automatically successfully achieve independence?

BUT, if Lalande does achieve independence, what is it going to do? It has no census and earns no EP, and has no way to build either. Would I spot them some EP and population points so they can at least get enough basic infastructure to feed themselves? Lalande would be at least self sufficient (ie, no starvation) with 1 Census, 1 Economy and 1 Agriculture.

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Wed May 23, 2012 4:00 pm

wminsing wrote:So Lalande is in revolt!! Well, it has 0 census so it is more of a miner's strike I guess. Time to brush up on the Rebellion rules.


Luckily since the colony has 0 Census you don't have to worry about any ground forces forming. If there had been Census there, then it would have broken free and become an independent state. Right now, with the colony in rebellion, its strategic resource is cutoff (need to make this explicit in the rules), so Sol doesn't get the trade resource bonus until the Morale situation at Lalande is resolved.

Sigma Draconis is a great find though- good system and well worth developing, plus perhaps a way around The Vortex.


It's even more amazing that you managed to miss your 40% chance of prewarp natives in the system. I've gotten very luck with that myself in my test game, much to my astonishment. It does look promising that Sigma Draconis could give you a way around the Vortex and grant access to those other systems.

Oh, who am I kidding, that system is going to be a planetless white dwarf with only two jump lanes attached to it. I know how fickle the dice are. :roll:
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Wed May 23, 2012 4:19 pm

wminsing wrote:First, Lalande is a 0 Census, nil infrastructure system- I never needed the colony for anything more than extracting the trade resource that doesn't need any infrastructure that I could see. So Lalande will get D6 x 0 EP in Rebel units, so 0 units. The rebels are going to have a little trouble getting off the ground.


Yeah, the rebels aren't much of a concern. They're just disgruntled spice miners that are going to get the shaft and cause problems for you in the long term...

wminsing wrote:BUT, it says that Rebellions succeed if there are no loyalist ground units present during the Morale phase. It was the morale phase, Lalande lost 1 morale and revolted, no loyalist units on the ground. So does Lalande automatically successfully achieve independence?


...or, you know, I could have completely forgotten that wording, in which case then yes Lalande is now a free republic because there aren't any loyalist ground units present to contest the rebel forces. So, yep, Lalande has declared its independence! Not that it has anything to be particularly independent about...

BUT, if Lalande does achieve independence, what is it going to do? It has no census and earns no EP, and has no way to build either. Would I spot them some EP and population points so they can at least get enough basic infastructure to feed themselves? Lalande would be at least self sufficient (ie, no starvation) with 1 Census, 1 Economy and 1 Agriculture.


The Lalande do inherit the trade route in their system, and it might be best to say that the trade resource increases a system's trade value by a minimum of 10. That would give the Lalande free republic 1 EP per turn that they could build up to make purchases. Without any Census, though, that still won't end up helping them appreciably. I need to write some edge case rules for these kinds of situations I can see.

I think the best solution is probably to give a 0 Census empire 1 EP and 1 PP per turn until they are capable of producing economic and population points on their own. Lalande's trade route and trade resource would then give it a total of 2 EP and 1 PP per turn. Anemic, but enough to at least get started.

Lalande can't build any facilities or colonies until it has a capital, and based on the current rules (including one bug that I just found) they'd have to spend 10 EP to build an imperial capital in Lalande. That means in 10 turns Lalande will be able to build an imperial capital, 1 Agriculture, and 1 Census in Lalande. Oh boy, they're cooking with fire!

Lalande is also small/weak enough that it would be considered a NAE and would have simplified diplomacy with the Terran Commonwealth. Namely, they'll sign treaties that they have a positive treaty acceptance chance for or break any that falls to 0 or less. There's some limitations that I know I've added but I can't remember if they're in that draft or not. I need to get the new one posted later today...

Also, diplomacy checks. I haven't written them in the rules, but here they are. After determining initial relationship (which is 50 - (D100 + XE1 + XE2) / 3), you roll 2D6 for each relationship during the Diplomacy Phase. 2-5: Relationship drops, 6-8 No Effect, 9-12: Relationship increases. Relationship drops/increases are on a 1D6, except they are increased to 2D6 on '2' or '12'. That seems to work well for creating periods of stability marked with periodic shifts.

The Commonwealth doesn't have to worry about establishing communications with Lalande because they already speak the same language, so that's not a concern.

Realistically, the Commonwealth is probably going to do one of two things:

A) Build an invasion force to move ground forces over to Lalande and then launch an invasion of Lalande to retake the colony. They're already in a state of war.

B) If relations are good enough, offer to sell the Lalandeans economic points or food in exchange for the trade resource. The disadvantage here is that they have to have a trade treaty first (possible) and the Commonwealth would have to build another trade route to Lalande.

All in all it's probably more likely that the Commonwealth will just move troops into the system and retake it, unless of course the Commonwealth doesn't want to deal with the hassle.
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Wed May 23, 2012 4:27 pm

...or, you know, I could have completely forgotten that wording, in which case then yes Lalande is now a free republic because there aren't any loyalist ground units present to contest the rebel forces. So, yep, Lalande has declared its independence! Not that it has anything to be particularly independent about...


Hah, very well. Time to send in the Home Guard to engage in some 'policing' actions. Or maybe the Commonwealth will decide to let them go. I'll review the diplomacy rules and let the dice decide.

It's even more amazing that you managed to miss your 40% chance of prewarp natives in the system. I've gotten very luck with that myself in my test game, much to my astonishment. It does look promising that Sigma Draconis could give you a way around the Vortex and grant access to those other systems.

Oh, who am I kidding, that system is going to be a planetless white dwarf with only two jump lanes attached to it. I know how fickle the dice are.


Actually, I had forgotten to roll for this, thanks for the reminder. But I went back and sure enough, rolled a 49. :|

We'll see if this next system is really a route or not- I seem to roll incredibly well or incredibly badly for system generation.

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Wed May 23, 2012 5:05 pm

wminsing wrote:Hah, very well. Time to send in the Home Guard to engage in some 'policing' actions. Or maybe the Commonwealth will decide to let them go. I'll review the diplomacy rules and let the dice decide.


It'll probably end up coming down to whether or not your initial relationship is high or low, or what the AIX values for the Lalande empire end up being.

The current treaty modifiers are as follows: Armistice +60, Border +40, Trade +20, Non-Aggression +0, Military & Research -20, Mutual Defense -40, Alliance -60. The mutual defense might be a bit high, and I may need to move the numbers around a bit after some extra testing. Empires receive a modifier to their relationship equal to 50 - XE when signing treaties. For 50/50/50 empires that means no modifiers, but friendly empires are more willing to sign treaties while more xenophobic empires aren't likely to sign major treaties at all.

Actually, I had forgotten to roll for this, thanks for the reminder. But I went back and sure enough, rolled a 49. :|


I've had games where the empire discovery rolls went the other way with every decent system being inhabited and leaving only the junk or low Biosphere systems up for grabs. It definitely made for an interesting game, albeit one with minimal expansionism on the part of the player empire.

We'll see if this next system is really a route or not- I seem to roll incredibly well or incredibly badly for system generation.


I seem to be rolling absolutely average in my current game. No truly great systems, but very few that are outright garbage, either. But then I haven't been unlucky enough to find two black holes, either, for which I am extremely grateful!
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Thu May 24, 2012 12:52 pm

Ok, trying to wrap my head around the diplomacy rules, couple of questions.

First, should I treat the Commonwealth as a NPE power or not for diplomatic purposes? It is technically a 'player' empire but since everyone else is going to be a NPE it might be appropriate.

Second, will a 'Border Treaty' end the war? I see in the older draft there is a separate armistice treaty but it's not present in the newer draft

Assuming the Commonwealth will act as a NPE, I calculate the chance of it offering a Border Treaty to the Lalande Free State as follows:
100 (base) - 50 (XE) - 13 (relations) = 37 = 40%

And if the Commonwealth offers such a treat the Lalande free state I calculate the chance of the Lalande Free State to accept as follows:

-13 (relations) + 50 (base) - 66 (XE) + 40 (Treaty Mod) = 11, auto-accept for NAE power

Did I calculate these correctly? It seems odd that the Commonwealth has a 40% chance of just wanting to end the war without any fighting taking place.

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

countercheck
Lieutanant Commander
Lieutanant Commander
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:34 pm

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby countercheck » Thu May 24, 2012 1:24 pm

Hell no: we won't go!
Lalande for Lalanders!
Hey hey wminsing-eh, how many kids did you kill today?
Commonwealth bombers incinerate minors along with miners.
Lalande: Is it worth it? An expert's report.

I can totally see a middle of the road star empire not caring about a border rebellion that's taking place on a world barely capable of supporting itself.

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Thu May 24, 2012 1:33 pm

I can see a thematic reason for it, sure. But if I wasn't fighting Lalande but was instead fighting against against the evil Blortch Imperium who ate the peace yarn-folk of Nylar IV, and I had -13 relations with them, the math would be the same. A 40% peace treaty offer rate that doesn't take into account loses, relative strength, length of war, etc, does strike me as a bit odd. That's why I am assuming I've done something wrong. :)

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Thu May 24, 2012 7:48 pm

wminsing wrote:Ok, trying to wrap my head around the diplomacy rules, couple of questions.


Yeah, you hit the area of the rules that seem to be in perpetual rewrite mode and that I have been working on the most the last few weeks making final changes to. This is very much going to be a "black box" back and forth, I'm afraid until I get the gaps filled and a new rules draft completed and up with the info combined and differences reconciled.

First, should I treat the Commonwealth as a NPE power or not for diplomatic purposes? It is technically a 'player' empire but since everyone else is going to be a NPE it might be appropriate.


It should be treated a Non-Aligned Empire (NAE), which is basically a NPE that doesn't have enough money to be worth worrying a lot about. The only distinction is that NAE have simplified diplomacy in that they always sign treaties that they have positive acceptance chances for, and automatically break those that they have no chance of signing. This cuts out the declaring, breaking, offering rolls that the NPEs normally require every turn.

Second, will a 'Border Treaty' end the war? I see in the older draft there is a separate armistice treaty but it's not present in the newer draft


Armistice ends the war. That treaty has a +60 modifier, and based on the -13 relationship for the Lalande/Commonwealth and the Lalande's 66 XE, we end up with a treaty acceptance chance of -13 (relationship) - 16 (XE) + 60 (treaty modifier) = 31%. This is an auto-accept for Lalande, but being an armistice treaty the Commonwealth would have to sign it, too. The Commonwealth's acceptance chance for an armistice is -13 (relationship) + 0 (XE) + 60 (treaty modifier) = 47%. The Commonwealth player can then choose to accept or reject the offer as he sees fit. That means you can decide whether or not you want the Commonwealth to accept the armistice. If you don't, you stay in a state of war.

Now, if your relationship and XE combined were -60 or less, then even as a player empire you wouldn't be able to offer or sign an armistice because you're just too belligerent. The only way to rectify that would be by improving relations.

Which brings up another point, and something still in playtest: diplomatic missions. The cost to perform a diplomatic mission is 5 x Range between your nearest capital and the opponent's nearest capital. You roll 2D6 and have a good chance of increasing relations (at its simplest), or you can spark a diplomatic incident and lose relations (but there's a very low chance of that). I'm trying to graft on the other elements to the diplomatic missions that would allow you to modify the target's relationship with another power, too. Testing for balance there, essentially.

Did I calculate these correctly? It seems odd that the Commonwealth has a 40% chance of just wanting to end the war without any fighting taking place.


It's pretty close, just a case of adjusting the treaty modifier to +60 for armistice but otherwise everything looks more or less in order. The Commonwealth's acceptance chance is at 47% for the armistice offer -- which is pretty close to 50/50. You could roll against the acceptance chance to see what to do or else make a decision on your own as to what you want to do with the Lalande Free State.

Looking at other diplomatic possibilities, if you did sign an armistice with them they would have positive treaty acceptance for a border treaty (11%) but not trade (-9%). The two empires would have to increase relations to -4 before they would consent to a trade agreement, and even then relations would be tenuous enough that I wouldn't recommend establishing trade routes until you have some assurance they won't turn around and break the trade treaty and destroy your trade routes.

Given the Terran Commonwealth's current relationship with Lalande (-13), it would have a 13% chance of declaring war. This can be increased by other factors that are still be redefined in the rules, and I'm actually working on a rather major reworking of the declaration rules that eliminates the hostilities/war/total war style breakdown and instead bases the kinds of attacks you can carry out to your effective relationship after adjusting for Aggressiveness. Based on the notes I have here right now, the Commonwealth would have an effective relationship (needs a better name) of -13 with Lalande, as the Commonwealth's AG is 50 which provide no modifier. Every point of AG above 50 subtracts one, every point of AG below 50 adds one.

At -13 effective an empire can bombard or invade enemy Outposts or Settlements but nothing larger. At -20 they move up to Minor Colonies, -30 to Major Colonies, and finally Core Worlds at -40. I may end up adjusting these all down a notch, but I need to see how it ends up working out in practice. The idea is that your ability to attack enemy colonies is scaled against how bad your relationship really is. Empires with relationships that are just poor and not utterly terrible aren't going to go homicidal and conquer each other or kill all their people. They can still run in and wipe out their fleets and facilities, but they aren't going to target civilians unless the war heats up.

I'm not sure what Lalande's AG was, but if it was 66 like its XE then it would have an effective relationship of -29 for the purposes of warfare. That means they could attack the Commonwealth's minor colony systems... if Lalande had any units available to actually do that.

The diplomacy rule update will be finished this weekend and up. Memorial Day gives me three days to work on this (minus the time spent on Saturday watching the Eurovision final). I've been rolling together updates as I work through the filosi/kishok diplomatic interactions in my current game.
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

User avatar
Tyrel Lohr
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:48 am
Location: Lusk, WY
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby Tyrel Lohr » Thu May 24, 2012 7:59 pm

wminsing wrote:I can see a thematic reason for it, sure. But if I wasn't fighting Lalande but was instead fighting against against the evil Blortch Imperium who ate the peace yarn-folk of Nylar IV, and I had -13 relations with them, the math would be the same. A 40% peace treaty offer rate that doesn't take into account loses, relative strength, length of war, etc, does strike me as a bit odd. That's why I am assuming I've done something wrong. :)


At one point I did have a multiplier factored into the armistice treaty chances where you took the empire's system income at the start of the war divided by its current system income and then multiplied it times its armistice treaty chance. That way empires that are losing the war are more willing to sign an armistice while those that are completely victorious aren't as willing... which is where that broke down, honestly, as then after awhile peace became impossible.

I had more extensive tracking in 1E, but it was kind of a pain and didn't seem to help that much. That being said, it would be easy to add that stuff back in. The easiest would be a war exhaustion style modifier where you would roll against your AG every turn; on a roll above AG you gain +1% war exhaustion. This then becomes a modifier to armistice attempts.

For military and economic losses, you could do something similar to increase war exhaustion by 1% per Census lost, plus maybe +1% per 10 Infrastructure, +1% per X CC units lost. Before you gained bonuses for the units you killed, too, and all of that could be added back in to a war tracking value.
"Touch not the pylons, for they are the messengers!"

wminsing
Commander
Commander
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:06 pm
Contact:

Re: 2nd Edition Playtest Report- Terran Commonwealth

Postby wminsing » Fri May 25, 2012 12:42 pm

Ok, that clears a few things up. If I am controlling the diplomacy of the Terran Commonwealth than I will NOT be offering a peace treaty to a bunch of angry miners who can't even feed themselves! ;) That simplifies the problem immensely. I think I will need to start garrisoning the other colonies though.

-Will
"Ships and sail proper for the heavenly air should be fashioned. Then there will also be people, who do not shrink from the dreary vastness of space."

-- Johannes Kepler, 1609


Return to “Second Edition Development”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest