Ground Unit Costs

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BLHarrison
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Ground Unit Costs

Post by BLHarrison »

Using the Unit building rules Ground units are much more expensive in V.2
Take a Marine unit, In V1 it is listed as size 5 DV3 ATTK3 ATTR3 and having a cost of 1/2 EP. To get the same stats it would cost 10 points (this is with Assualt added to represent the old "Marine" special ability and 4 points of Command all at ETL 2. With Command drop the price is 9 EP)

Now granted this is primarlly a Space Navy Game, but at these prices even minimal ground forces will have to take a bigger slice of the overall budget. And people will want to use the extra mass, an earlier version of the regiment cost 19 points!! Granted it had a whole lot more firepower, attrition and included the new AA and Bombardment stats, but still ......

Perhaps instead of the current 150 value in calculating the unit mass points, 75 or 100 should be used instead, this would produced less expensive ground units, reflecting, but not exactly matching the V.1 values.

<addendum> I've checked and assuming I've got the spreadsheet set up right, to make ground units more in line with VBAM v.1 you would have to reduce the mass cost for Attack-Ground and Attrition.

Assuming the values I listed above plus a mobility of 1 and that all the ETL's are at the same level the unit costs 6 points if the mass value is changed to 10 and the ETL is 0

At ETL 2 the cost is 5

At ETL 3 the cost is 4

To get a cost of 1 you need to be at ETL 13

While it doesn't lead to the same low costs as in version 1, it does allow ground units (at least more common ones) to remain much cheaper than Fleet units and with a simple change in only two base mass units values
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Tyrel Lohr
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

What is the Unit Size of the equivalent ground unit that you created, BLHarrison?

You raise an interesting point, BLHarrison. I hadn't thought about trying to correlate the 1E ground units to 2E ground units, as I have been more worried about the space combat units and how they balance against one another. As a thought exercise on this side, I am going to walk through the same process you did and see if we end up with the same results.

First off is Unit Size. In 1E, all ground units were essentially equivalent to SIZ 10 units in 2E for movement purposes. However, 2E tries to push for smaller ground units, usually closer to the 3-5 SIZ limit. You used SIZ 5, and that sounds good to me. That gives us a Maximum Mass of 1034 to work with.

Considering that Defense has replaced Defense Value and Attrition for ground units, our 2E Marine should have 3 Defense (3 DV + 3 ATTR, divide by 2). This takes into account that ground units now cripple like any other unit. Those 3 Defense will cost us 150 Mass.

Next we look at combat stats. In 1E the Marine had 3 Attack and D3 D Factor. Let's call this a total of 6 points of combat rating. We can spread those across Anti-Ground, Anti-Air, and Anti-Sea as we see fit. Let's call it 3 AG and 3 AA for right now. That is 300 Mass.

Mobility and Command are something that we didn't have to pay for in 1E but do now here. For the purposes of this test run, let's give the Marine 2 Mobility (2 x 20 x 5 = 200 Mass) and 4 Command (4 x 40 = 160 Mass). This makes the unit fairly mobile, plus it is now capable of commanding itself plus two other similarly-sized ground units.

Our total mass points used at this point at TL 1 is 150+300+200+160=810. This leaves us 224 mass points left to spend on other abilities. One that we would want to purchase would be an actual Marine ability, which will probably end up costing 30 Mass once put in the book, and provides a +1 AG/AA bonus for invading units only. We could add quite a few levels of that to our Marines, but let's just assume we add 3 Marine for a total of 90 more mass, bringing us up to 900 mass.

Our 2E Marine now costs 9 EP to build and 0.44 to maintain. Comparing this to the original 1E Marine, the Maintenance Cost is very similar, but the cost is obviously much higher (4.5 times as high). However, in 1E, the ground units were dreadfully cheap throwaway units. That is no longer the case in 2E, with Troops being the ground equivalent of Starships for game play purposes.

You're right that the 2E Troops are more expensive and will eat up more of an empire's construction budget. However, they are also more powerful and will last longer. A large ground unit that is tricked out with a lot of firepower and equipment will be able to hold its own against enemy assaults quite handily. That is especially true for SIZ 10 ground units, which would represent the "home garrisons" that you would find on major colony worlds. Expensive to build and maintain, sure, but extremely difficult to eliminate -- which will make it even harder for an enemy force to make landfall and establish a beachhead.

I would also like to point out that, as the rules currently are written, players will likely be building smaller ground units in larger quantities for invasion duties and reserving the larger ones for planetary defense. That is because each point of Cargo rating will allow 1 SIZ of friend ground units to be carried. Unless you want to build very large freighters or assault cruisers, you aren't going to be able to haul the largest ground units around without risking them being destroyed in an unlucky firefight.

Wait, you're right -- Assault really can be used for assault transports and marines alike as the intended benefits are really the same. Doh!

This is all very good food for thought. The overall take away is that ground combat units are getting more expensive in 2E, but they are also becoming more capable. On the flipside, players probably will still build smaller, less capable versions that can be moved more freely and behave similar to the 1E ground combat units in regards to their fragility.

-Tyrel
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Post by murtalianconfederacy »

But with that comes the fact that if you want you can build Bolos...:D
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Post by DrakenFyre »

murtalianconfederacy wrote:But with that comes the fact that if you want you can build Bolos...:D
Hurrah for continental siege engines! I know that's one of the things I'm looking forward to in 2E.
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Something else that I just realized as an additional point of reference is that the cost of destroyers, which were usually 2-3 EP in 1E, are now also closer to 4-5 EP in 2E, so there is a general cost increase for all units in the game.

As to bolos -- yes, you can build gigantic ground units that will be capable of absolutely crushing the opposition. You just have to figure out how to move and deploy them :)

-Tyrel
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Post by BLHarrison »

Tyrel Lohr wrote: First off is Unit Size. In 1E, all ground units were essentially equivalent to SIZ 10 units in 2E for movement purposes. However, 2E tries to push for smaller ground units, usually closer to the 3-5 SIZ limit. You used SIZ 5, and that sounds good to me. That gives us a Maximum Mass of 1034 to work with.
-Tyrel
I was not sure if the "normal" ground unit was going to be 5 or 10 size
so I was playing around to see costs and such. I didn't know that ground units were suppose to benefit from sizing like starships are (the largest Starship for one of my empires is a Size 4 BB, not as powerful as the one I used for a sample, but within 1 point of the samples cost) My corvettes and frigates are all size 1


<snip of example, close to other units I've made sense them

Tyrel Lohr wrote: One that we would want to purchase would be an actual Marine ability, which will probably end up costing 30 Mass once put in the book, and provides a +1 AG/AA bonus for invading units only. We could add quite a few levels of that to our Marines, but let's just assume we add 3 Marine for a total of 90 more mass, bringing us up to 900 mass.
-Tyrel
The value above sounds good for cost and firepower, assume that the above example would have 6AG/6AA on the invasion turn only.
Tyrel Lohr wrote: Our 2E Marine now costs 9 EP to build and 0.44 to maintain. Comparing this to the original 1E Marine, the Maintenance Cost is very similar, but the cost is obviously much higher (4.5 times as high). However, in 1E, the ground units were dreadfully cheap throwaway units. That is no longer the case in 2E, with Troops being the ground equivalent of Starships for game play purposes.

You're right that the 2E Troops are more expensive and will eat up more of an empire's construction budget. However, they are also more powerful and will last longer. A large ground unit that is tricked out with a lot of firepower and equipment will be able to hold its own against enemy assaults quite handily. That is especially true for SIZ 10 ground units, which would represent the "home garrisons" that you would find on major colony worlds. Expensive to build and maintain, sure, but extremely difficult to eliminate -- which will make it even harder for an enemy force to make landfall and establish a beachhead.
-Tyrel
No longer a "throw-away" explains the higher cost and the increased importance of ground units. You are also right on the money about some of the Size 10 units. One of the empires has what I designated as "Tribal Horde" it reads something like this:

Cost Maint DV AG AA Bomb Attr
40 0.97 15 40 10 10 10

Tyrel Lohr wrote: you aren't going to be able to haul the largest ground units around without risking them being destroyed in an unlucky firefight.
-Tyrel
Yes, dispersal can be your friend when people are shooting at you ;)
Tyrel Lohr wrote: Wait, you're right -- Assault really can be used for assault transports and marines alike as the intended benefits are really the same. Doh!
-Tyrel
As an aside, I am correct in assuming that a ship with Assault 1 can carry a size 1 ground unit?, that is without dedicated cargo space?

2nd aside, does a ground unit need an assault value that matches it size or can even a Size 10 unit land itself with only an Assault value of 1

Thanks for your time and response
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Post by murtalianconfederacy »

Tyrel Lohr wrote:Something else that I just realized as an additional point of reference is that the cost of destroyers, which were usually 2-3 EP in 1E, are now also closer to 4-5 EP in 2E, so there is a general cost increase for all units in the game.

As to bolos -- yes, you can build gigantic ground units that will be capable of absolutely crushing the opposition. You just have to figure out how to move and deploy them :)

-Tyrel
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Post by Chyll »

murtalianconfederacy wrote:
Tyrel Lohr wrote:Something else that I just realized as an additional point of reference is that the cost of destroyers, which were usually 2-3 EP in 1E, are now also closer to 4-5 EP in 2E, so there is a general cost increase for all units in the game.

As to bolos -- yes, you can build gigantic ground units that will be capable of absolutely crushing the opposition. You just have to figure out how to move and deploy them :)

-Tyrel
Don't worry, I'll find a way...:D
Note to self: target murtalian's large, squat transports at the earliest opportunity. no, earlier than that.

:lol: :twisted:
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Post by BLHarrison »

Chyll wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:
Tyrel Lohr wrote:Something else that I just realized as an additional point of reference is that the cost of destroyers, which were usually 2-3 EP in 1E, are now also closer to 4-5 EP in 2E, so there is a general cost increase for all units in the game.

As to bolos -- yes, you can build gigantic ground units that will be capable of absolutely crushing the opposition. You just have to figure out how to move and deploy them :)

-Tyrel
Don't worry, I'll find a way...:D
Note to self: target murtalian's large, squat transports at the earliest opportunity. no, earlier than that.

:lol: :twisted:
That or have your own Bolos waiting to ... welcome them
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

BLHarrison wrote:I was not sure if the "normal" ground unit was going to be 5 or 10 size so I was playing around to see costs and such. I didn't know that ground units were suppose to benefit from sizing like starships are (the largest Starship for one of my empires is a Size 4 BB, not as powerful as the one I used for a sample, but within 1 point of the samples cost) My corvettes and frigates are all size 1
A player can really decide what SIZ of ground units they want their empire to focus on. You can build small ground units that are cheaper to build and easier to transport, or you can build the larger ground units that are harder to move but much harder to destroy -- or that are better at attacking enemy planets.

Tyrel Lohr wrote: One that we would want to purchase would be an actual Marine ability, which will probably end up costing 30 Mass once put in the book, and provides a +1 AG/AA bonus for invading units only. We could add quite a few levels of that to our Marines, but let's just assume we add 3 Marine for a total of 90 more mass, bringing us up to 900 mass.
-Tyrel
The value above sounds good for cost and firepower, assume that the above example would have 6AG/6AA on the invasion turn only.
Correct. The invasions are now tied to specific ground combat scenarios, so the Assault bonus would just apply in those scenarios when forces are trying to gain a beachhead at an enemy colony.
As an aside, I am correct in assuming that a ship with Assault 1 can carry a size 1 ground unit?, that is without dedicated cargo space?
Assault is no longer used to transport ground units; it only provides an invasion attack bonus during applicable scenarios. Cargo is used to transport units now, both to simplify the movement rules and to make Cargo a bit more important.

2nd aside, does a ground unit need an assault value that matches it size or can even a Size 10 unit land itself with only an Assault value of 1
That was originally the plan, but it was dropped along the line when the concept of actual ground combat scenarios came into the picture. Now those scenarios allow us to afford the defenders enough protection so that there is no problem with "non-Marine invading from transports" ala 1E where we had to have a special penalty apply to the non-Marine units.

To actually answer you question, no, Assault isn't used to invade or transport units anymore. Its presence does however increase the amount of firepower the invading troops will have when attempting to gain a beachhead.

-Tyrel
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Post by murtalianconfederacy »

BLHarrison wrote:
Chyll wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote: Don't worry, I'll find a way...:D
Note to self: target murtalian's large, squat transports at the earliest opportunity. no, earlier than that.

:lol: :twisted:
That or have your own Bolos waiting to ... welcome them
Bolo fights are fun...:D

Anyway, it would also mean, on a serious note, that you could try and play the Concordiat in a campaign...
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