Technology pdf questions

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Technology pdf questions

Post by OldnGrey »

Just had a quick look through the pdf.
Could you please throw some light on the following.

Page.8
As Construction Cost is used in the calc for Completion Time, which figure is used, Base or TL adjusted (Re shipyard) in the Completion Time calc?
Page.9
Assault (Support) prerequisites are only available to Ground Units.
Page.11
Deception and Electronic Protection appear to be essentially the same thing.
Defense creates a "loop" since some of the prerequisites have Defense as a prerequisite. As does Engines so unarmed ship would not be possible.
Page.13
Hanger (Basing), prerequisite (Mobility) only available to Ground Units. This has a knock on to Launch Bay (Basing).

Thanks.
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Two sections 11.4

Post by nimrodd »

There is 11.4 Tech Advancement and it's subsections, then following this there is 11.4 Empire Tech Levels and it's subsections.
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Re: Two sections 11.4

Post by OldnGrey »

It was 11.5.4 Technical Prerequisites giving me a headache, having re-read it a few times I see where my problem was.
I did not see that it is only space weapons that need defense unlocked first. :oops:

Just the completion time question.
Is there already a unit design spreadsheet as inferred in 12.5 para 2?

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Post by nimrodd »

In section 11.4.1 Unlocking Technology, in the second paragraph, you state:
"The base cost (in tech points) to unlock a new
technology is equal to an empire’s total Census
times 10 or 100, whichever is greater."

And in section 11.4.2 Increasing Tech Level, second paragraph:
"To calculate the tech point cost for an empire to
increase the tech level of one of its available
technologies, take the empire’s total Census (or 10,
whichever is greater) and add the tech level being
researched, and then multiply this total by 10."

I would rewrite 11.4.1 to read:
"The base cost (in tech points) to unlock a new
technology is equal to an empire's total Census (or 10,
whichever is greater) times 10."

This would make both sections read the same.
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Post by nimrodd »

I am wondering if all of the pools are going to a "Make the X this turn, spend it next turn", with X being Tech Points or Economic Points or whatever?

Currently (1e) EP are spent on the turn they are "made".
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Re: Technology pdf questions

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Page.8
As Construction Cost is used in the calc for Completion Time, which figure is used, Base or TL adjusted (Re shipyard) in the Completion Time calc?
Construction Cost is calculated prior to calculating Completion Time, so you use the actual Construction Cost computed during Step 6 during Step 8.

Page.9
Assault (Support) prerequisites are only available to Ground Units.
I realized after I posted that last night that I really need to clean up the prerequisites, both to make them more clear and align better with the latest version of the tech tree. I will get that done and posted tomorrow.

In this case, the prerequisites are the technologies that have to be researched first before a player can unlock the indicated technology. Thus, as written in the document now, you would have to unlock both Anti-Ground and Anti-Sea technologies before you could unlock Assault. The Assault tech can then be equipped on either space or ground combat units.

Page.11
Deception and Electronic Protection appear to be essentially the same thing.
Deception is awaiting it final rules tie-in back to the finalized version of its rules from the CSCR. Deception is used to mask a ship during the detection process, making it appear either larger or smaller than it really is.

I have been debating one whether or not to kick that tech to the Engineering Manual, anyway, so it may just be best to move it there where it can be discussed in better detail.

Defense creates a "loop" since some of the prerequisites have Defense as a prerequisite. As does Engines so unarmed ship would not be possible.
Gah, I had a feeling that was the case. Will update that tomorrow, too.

Page.13
Hanger (Basing), prerequisite (Mobility) only available to Ground Units. This has a knock on to Launch Bay (Basing).
As with the Assault question, the prerequisites are for research, not for implementation. The connection to ground techs is merely because that the Hangar/Launch technologies become available before an empire achieves spaceflight, so they can't be tied to space techs.

There is 11.4 Tech Advancement and it's subsections, then following this there is 11.4 Empire Tech Levels and it's subsections.
Hah, that is part of the reason that I leave X.X in most places until the end -- that way I at least have to double check those numbers to make sure that they aren't screwed up. I have renumbered the local draft.

I would rewrite 11.4.1 to read:
"The base cost (in tech points) to unlock a new
technology is equal to an empire's total Census (or 10,
whichever is greater) times 10."
I think I tried weaving the simplified research rule into unlocking without paying any attention... or else I just completely had no idea what I was writing when I wrote that (either is a possibility!).

Is there already a unit design spreadsheet as inferred in 12.5 para 2?
Charlie has put together a few sample sheets, but so far I have just been doing everything by hand. On final release we will have a spreadsheet, though. If Charlie is okay with me posting one of the sheets, I will add it to the blog post and the stickied forum thread.

I am wondering if all of the pools are going to a "Make the X this turn, spend it next turn", with X being Tech Points or Economic Points or whatever?

Currently (1e) EP are spent on the turn they are "made".
The dynamic is indeed being changed so that you spend the items on the turn after they are earned. This includes moving the Income Phase to the end of the campaign phase. That way the campaign turn will begin with the Turn Orders Phase and then progress onwards from there resolving the players' turn orders. We had several players that were confused by the previous turn sequence, especially with the Income Phase taking place before they drafted their turn orders.

The primary advantage to this method is that when the player is handed his updated sheets at the beginning of the campaign turn he will know exactly what his resources look like at the beginning of that turn (effective of the end of the previous turn), and can plan accordingly. Additionally, it allows the events of a campaign turn to be reflected in the income earned.

Of course, moving the Income Phase back really doesn't change the actual flow of the game that much, as the Income Phase came first before -- it is now just back loaded into the turn now instead of being front loaded as in 1E.

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Post by Charles Lewis »

Feel free to post my worksheet. It is still very raw and is only setup to design starships but might serve as a jumping off point for someone else to create something snazzy. :)

If I get a chance next week (not holding breath) I'll see what I can to add ground unit and fighter design sheets.
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Post by OldnGrey »

Thanks Tyrel
Charles Lewis wrote:Feel free to post my worksheet. It is still very raw and is only setup to design starships but might serve as a jumping off point for someone else to create something snazzy. :)

If I get a chance next week (not holding breath) I'll see what I can to add ground unit and fighter design sheets.
Phew! that is a relief, I started one and realised that it could take longer to do than the Wardogs sheet did.

In 2E has Command (Electronics) at a 40 mass cost (per point?) replaced the Command Rating?

I notice that the maximum mass per siz has been increased since the last example, just checking that the ^1.2 was not a slip from ^1.3?

A chart showing which unit types can use each technology would have been helpful. some are obvious but a clear cut rule would be nice.

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Post by nimrodd »

General question about some of the ground techs. Why must a player have both Anti-Ground and Anti-Sea to be able to advance. If I am playing the Fremen, why would I need Anti-Sea, and indeed, how would I even develop it. If I am playing an aquatic race, would I really need Anti-Ground?
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

nimrodd wrote:General question about some of the ground techs. Why must a player have both Anti-Ground and Anti-Sea to be able to advance. If I am playing the Fremen, why would I need Anti-Sea, and indeed, how would I even develop it. If I am playing an aquatic race, would I really need Anti-Ground?
"It's a game mechanic" is the best answer I can give you. The real reason for some of the technologies is that I would like to make sure that every empire research all of the Common technologies so that they will have them available, although some of the technologies are less required than others.

Anti-Sea is an obvious technology that serves very little purpose, and doesn't necessarily make sense without some hand waving in specific circumstances (the Dune setting you gave, for example).

Anti-Ground, however, is a far more problematic technology. If an empire never researches it, then they can't build ground combat units capable of fighting other ground combat units. They could fight naval battles and even have great anti-air capabilities, but without Anti-Ground they would be completely unable to invade or defend their planets from enemy attack (unless they specialized completely on the other unit types... which I guess they could, which I hadn't considered...).

I will have to think about that. Maybe there isn't a compelling reason to have prerequisites on some of those technologies. However, that then makes things even more problematic as it makes it largely impossible to find a way to build a tech tree to simplify the Empire Tech Level (ETL) tie in.

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Post by OldnGrey »

In the last construction example the Max Mass was rounded up to the next hundred. The calc in 12.5 unit design gives higher values, these are "round fractional maximum mass vales down", to x hundred mass?

What mass of cargo can be transported per Cargo Rating?

Thanks,
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

OldnGrey wrote:In the last construction example the Max Mass was rounded up to the next hundred. The calc in 12.5 unit design gives higher values, these are "round fractional maximum mass vales down", to x hundred mass?
I decided to drop the maximum mass rounding because it was becoming a bit problematic in a few cases, and I decided that it wasn't explicitly necessary. In particular, while massaging the numbers, I ran into a few unit sizes where the extra 50 or so Mass really came in handy, or at least varied things a bit.

Looking at 12.5, that penciled in example under Maintenance Cost is wrong -- it came from before the switch. I will get that fixed. The correct numbers as of this writing would be:

Example: 905/1287 x 6/10 = 0.42
OldnGrey wrote:What mass of cargo can be transported per Cargo Rating?
There is a Cargo-to-SIZ equivalency that is included in the Cargo rules in the Movement chapter that I just posted to the blog. Each unit type has a different equivalency in order to allow small units to be moved as cargo more easily than larger units can. So you can build massive Heighliners capable of moving starships between systems, but they are going to be expensive.

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Post by OldnGrey »

Thanks Tyrel.
Could you please give the shipyard v2E10 a look at.
I admit I have no idea if Peacekeeper should be included for space units or not.
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Noticed something about prerequisites

Post by BLHarrison »

In the Technology file there is as statement in 11.4.3 that for an interplanetary empire to reach Interstellar level it must have 10 technologies at level 2.

However the entry in 11.5.7 Technology Database that deals with the FTL drive states that the prerequisites for FTL are: Defense (1), Engines (1), Sensors (1), Science (1), Endurance (1).

Perhaps the following changes should be made:


(In 11.4.3)
Tech Advancement: Interplanetary powers are allowed to conduct research normally, with the exception that they cannot attempt to unlock FTL technology until the empire’s tech list contains at least 10 technologies at TL 2 or higher. In addition the power must have at least Defense (1), Engines (1), Sensors (1), Science (1), Endurance (1). Once these conditions are met, the empire is allowed to unlock and develop the FTL technology without any further limitations.

Or at least words to that effect. Meanwhile the FTL entry in 11.5.7 Technology Database could be changed to:

Prerequisites: Defense (1), Engines (1), Sensors (1), Science (1), Endurance (1). In addition remember that the power must have a total of 10 Technologies at level 2
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

I ended up changing the technology advancement requirements for the ETLs to be something a bit better defined, and tied it back into the current prerequisite "tech tree" that I have updated in my working document (I need to get those updated files uploaded).

Essentially, the breakdowns now look like this:

Pre-Industrial => Industrial: Unlock 10 Technologies
Industrial => Interplanetary: Build first Starship
Interplanetary => Interstellar: Build first FTL-equipped unit
Interstellar => Midborn: 10 techs @ TL 7
Midborn => Ancient: 10 techs @ TL 10

I also separated the ETL options into separate sub-sections, and moved the tech advancement requirements to their section, with starting technologies appearing in another section.

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