Official Second Edition Public Playtest Thread

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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Section 4.4.1 mentions "Interplanetary Lanes"
Ah, in the unfinished (and even a partial cut/paste) section. Yes, on system maps the different solar system locations will be connected via Interplanetary Lanes.
Should the roll in 13.5.2 be a skill check, or are you moving away from that idea?
I had to get rid of the 2D10 skill check because it was giving me too many issues with balancing all of the different modifiers. You ended up needing two lookup charts for most checks.

Now they are all D100 campaign checks made against a target number, with odds being minor results and evens being major results. Not perfect, but at least it doesn't require the player to memorize umpteen different lookup charts.

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Post by Gareth_Perkins »

Tyrel Lohr wrote: I had to get rid of the 2D10 skill check because it was giving me too many issues with balancing all of the different modifiers. You ended up needing two lookup charts for most checks.

Now they are all D100 campaign checks made against a target number, with odds being minor results and evens being major results. Not perfect, but at least it doesn't require the player to memorize umpteen different lookup charts.
Fair 'nuff,

Should the 13.5.2 exploration die roll be of this type then?
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Gareth_Perkins wrote:Fair 'nuff,
I did get far enough into the conversion that now I have to go back and change it all back again, but the real deal breaker with the 2D10 option was the number of lookup tables required to make anything work. The player would have had to go flipping back and forth through the book every time they needed to make a check.
Should the 13.5.2 exploration die roll be of this type then?
Yes, the 13.5.2 exploration roll is a campaign check. I have made that a bit more explicit in the working draft, and there is a section earlier in the book that talks about campaign checks and will provide a reference to every campaign check in the book.

I did end up using your odd/even recommendation, as it ended up being the lesser of several evils, and at least prevented the player from having to make two different die rolls for every campaign check.

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Re: Official Second Edition Public Playtest Thread

Post by Chyll »

Tyrel Lohr wrote:Welcome to the official VBAM Second Edition Public Playtest Thread! I will be updating this first post to include new playtest materials as they are posted to the blog.

-Tyrel
Gah! Sure put this out when I am in the middle of moving - and everything is packed and I have no gorram'd time!

A thousand curses upon thee!!


(OTOH, nice job getting this out in December on your original timeline. I can only imagine how much time that took. I should have time after Christmas to peruse this and maybe run some short solo play tests. YAY)
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Re: Official Second Edition Public Playtest Thread

Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Chyll wrote:(OTOH, nice job getting this out in December on your original timeline. I can only imagine how much time that took. I should have time after Christmas to peruse this and maybe run some short solo play tests. YAY)
I have a large chunk of the remaining rules almost ready to post, and they will be there in time for the Christmas break (hopefully before, but so far this month continues to be as bad as the last six as far as actually finding time to work on it). I just have to finish cleaning up portions... though at this point I may just end up posting where we are and let everyone start wading through the material to see what they like or don't like :)

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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Just as a general update, I have several more sections about ready to post, and may just post what I've got to get them released. Unfortunately, I have been working about 12 hour days this week and I don't see it getting any better until after Christmas (gah). But I might get a break tonight to get the info up, so you should see something soon-ish.

Sorry for the delay!

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Post by Chyll »

I am making my way through the material in detail (finally).
You probably have some fancy forum guidelines to receive feedback, but I'm just jumping in:


Do I assume minor grammatical items are captured already (given my late arrival)?

Is the sample tech tree derived from the prereqs listed in the Tech DB (11.5.7)? I assume CM can alter prereqs to their heart's content.

A sample of what a unique tech might represent would be good (unless I missed it).

I like the tech list/advancement approach. I am confused about the cost of tech level application, however. In the 11.5.5 Mass Cost example, first "18.9 EP, which rounds up to 23 mass points". Something is wrong with that. Then,

Base Mass Cost x 0.87 ^ TL (round up)

Again, looking at the example in 11.5.5
Anti-ship Base Mass 50
TL 7
leads to a formula of
50*0.87^4

How did 7 get to be 4? And no fiddling with my calculator gets to 18.9, so I also am drawing a complete blank on the mathematical action represented by ^. Hmmm, Excel recognizes the command and generates a value of 28.64488, with the 4, but gets a matching 18.86274 when I use 7 instead.
So that example needs work.

This has probably been pointed out elsewhere hasn't it :)
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Chyll wrote:Do I assume minor grammatical items are captured already (given my late arrival)?
Unfortunately not. We have had a few emails and forum posts about some things (like the "Back Holes" mentioned in one place), but so far we haven't received much in the way of grammar/editing mistake lists from anyone yet. I have a feeling that most people are just as busy this time a year as I have regrettably been.

Barring an editing fairy showing up on my doorstep, once I have the book layout complete I will print off some copies (and have the other VBAMers do the same) so that we can all go through it and try to find most of the spelling or readability issues that we can.

Is the sample tech tree derived from the prereqs listed in the Tech DB (11.5.7)? I assume CM can alter prereqs to their heart's content.
It will be reflected in the final version of the tech rules (need to get those updated and reposted). I have also made some additional corrections to the projected tech tree based on some comments, essentially amounting to decoupling a few technologies and making others a bit more important.

A CM can certainly modify technology prerequisites as he sees fit. I'll go in and add a note to that effect for clarity.

A sample of what a unique tech might represent would be good (unless I missed it).
That's a good suggestion. I will think of something that might fit as an adequate example and get that added into the rules. No Unique techs are going to be included in the Campaign Guide, so I will have to be necessarily vague. I am not sure if many will actually even appear in the Engineering Manual -- there is a very good chance that they will, but some of the more obvious ones in my mind probably would fit a bit better in their own book (Time War -- Anti-Time weapons, Temporal Shields, and all other nature of extremely nasty technologies).

I like the tech list/advancement approach. I am confused about the cost of tech level application, however. In the 11.5.5 Mass Cost example, first "18.9 EP, which rounds up to 23 mass points". Something is wrong with that.
Yes, it appears that I had two examples that somehow got merged, or that I updated part of the example and not the rest -- so you had two different parts mashed together.

The correct answer is 19 mass points.

This has probably been pointed out elsewhere hasn't it :)
Unfortunately not, so it is very much appreciated!

You will find that most of the examples have been omitted in these files for similar reasons: to make sure that the examples actually use the final rules; as well as so that I can have those that discuss actual units tie back into the provided scenario-ready unit and planet lists.

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Post by Chyll »

I've now scanned most of it, for first impressions, etc.

Mapping:
the idea for 'layered' mapping universe, etc is very cool! Go buy yourself a coffee. Tell them its on Noel.
(gonna have to look at the Stars Divided material... may get to be multiple sectors)

Star Systems:
Lose the 'do' at the end of the first paragraph in 5.1

Biosphere roll table has RAW for the result column

The flow of this chapter is off. You need to introduce everything for the Commander option in its entirety first. Everything that a player needs for the basic setup, no jumping or dealing with the more complex at all. The more advance players will have an easier time looking back than a new player will going forward.

5.2.1 Starless Void - first paragraph sort of ends, and the second duplicates some of the first

not sure when I will ever used the more advanced generation, but it all looks solid. I did not stress test the examples

Movement:
On first read this all makes sense. Enough so that it will likely cause most of the movement section of Stars Divided rules to be pulled, and with the faster FTL tech worked in elsewhere also, it all feels right to me :lol:

The 13.3 Cargo section is interesting. This is likely going to put a lot more emphasis on 'the tail' isn't it? I can see needing to boost the amount of cargo lift for Stars Divided v2.

13.3.2.3 was particularly interesting with the need to move elite officers now.

I am struggling with whether 13.5 Exploration goes with movement or with 4.5 Jump Lanes. there is a lot of overlap in those concepts. Seems odd that they are so far apart in the book. I guess it works tho (first impression afterall)

Overall I like the exploration section here better than in the past - it is succinct, and yet includes some additional options.

Tech:
I know I found some grammar issues in tech the first time I read it, didn't mark them though. I will find them when I re-read it.

I have some ideas in mind already to update my excel management sheet for tech.

Space Combat
Didn't get to it yet. Given my past struggles with CSCR I am looking forward to seeing what you did.
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Post by Gareth_Perkins »

Am I correct in thinking that there's a section on interplanetary movement missing from either the movement section or the system generation section?

Movement refers to interplanetary lanes which don't seem to exist as a concept in system generation?


I do like the layered campaign map, but unless I am very much mistaken aren't the galaxies a bit on the small side (estimated 200-400 billion stars in the milky way, at 50 stars per sector that is a four billion sectors!)? Do you need a sub-sector layer or three (or several more) between systems and sectors perhaps? Or maybe an enlargement of sectors?

Even if you are only mapping "significant systems" (which doesn't fit the system generation mechanic) you're currently a few short or plausibility?
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Chyll wrote:Mapping:
the idea for 'layered' mapping universe, etc is very cool! Go buy yourself a coffee. Tell them its on Noel.
(gonna have to look at the Stars Divided material... may get to be multiple sectors)
The main reason that I went with this method in 2E is that it allows you to break a campaign map up into more controllable chunks so that they are individually easier to work with. Some of my larger campaign maps in 1E got a bit unwieldy in size, especially after multiple map hexes had been opened up.

Star Systems:
Lose the 'do' at the end of the first paragraph in 5.1

Biosphere roll table has RAW for the result column
Got it!

The flow of this chapter is off. You need to introduce everything for the Commander option in its entirety first. Everything that a player needs for the basic setup, no jumping or dealing with the more complex at all. The more advance players will have an easier time looking back than a new player will going forward.
The problem with that is that all of the rules, with the exception of the Commander rules, use all of the same rules. Putting all of the rules into each generation option would necessitate repeating the chapter's contents over and over and over again.

Now, that all being said, one solution that can be provided to players would be some reference PDFs that include the entirety of each system generation option in their own document, with all tables in-line for ease of reference. That way the logical rules structure (Stars => Zones => Planets) would be largely preserved in the book, but there would be another reference sheet that players could use when generating systems.

5.2.1 Starless Void - first paragraph sort of ends, and the second duplicates some of the first
Bwhaha -- a mid stream edit that never got finished up. Okay, got that fixed. It was a case of copying text from Star Charts, trying to get it reworked for 2E, and then seeing something shiny and not getting back to it.

not sure when I will ever used the more advanced generation, but it all looks solid. I did not stress test the examples
I personally use the Captain level rules for most everything and, during earlier playtest runs, used a hybrid version that included the star data from Admiral in order to test those out.

Movement:
On first read this all makes sense. Enough so that it will likely cause most of the movement section of Stars Divided rules to be pulled, and with the faster FTL tech worked in elsewhere also, it all feels right to me :lol:
I will not lie that Stars Divided's tech did have some influence on the desire to allow for more graduated tech advances. It allows you to have faster or slower FTL without the need for specific equipment, which is a nice bonus.

The 13.3 Cargo section is interesting. This is likely going to put a lot more emphasis on 'the tail' isn't it? I can see needing to boost the amount of cargo lift for Stars Divided v2.
I tried to make Cargo a more useful technology this time around. Now that it is required to move troops, goods, personnel, and replacement fighters, it is important to have some of them around, just in case.

13.3.2.3 was particularly interesting with the need to move elite officers now.
Now that Flights can't just be magically transported, it didn't seem right to allow elite officers to teleport across the map, either. It also gives players another reason to build fast couriers and upgrade jump lanes.

I am struggling with whether 13.5 Exploration goes with movement or with 4.5 Jump Lanes. there is a lot of overlap in those concepts. Seems odd that they are so far apart in the book. I guess it works tho (first impression afterall)
I had the same problem with the exploration rules. They once were in with the mapping option, but the exploration rules aren't used during the campaign map generation process, so I ended up bumping them to movement. The only reason they are there now is because they are effectively a movement order.

One alternative I can think of is to move the exploration rules to their own little mini chapter, but I don't think there is enough content (even stealing Unexplored Systems from the systems chapter) to justify that.

There are a lot of sections of the book that seem strange that they are as far apart from one another as they are, and I am open to suggestions on how to move the content around if it would make more sense.

Overall I like the exploration section here better than in the past - it is succinct, and yet includes some additional options.
My goal was to simplify the rules a bit and to separate the "explore the lanes" from the "travel down them" aspect. I also made it so that lanes are either explored or unexplored, so that you don't have to track that separately for each empire -- they just simply are either mapped or not for everyone equally.

I have some ideas in mind already to update my excel management sheet for tech.
The nice thing about the new tech rules is that they are still simple enough that you can sit down and design a ship with paper and a calculator, or quickly punch the formulas into a spreadsheet and run the calculations.

Space Combat
Didn't get to it yet. Given my past struggles with CSCR I am looking forward to seeing what you did.
I still have to get the new revisions of those rules put together. Here's hoping for that getting done this weekend among my other overtime work. There is a bit more front-loaded work setting up encounters in the 2E CSCR, but the battles become a bit more interesting as a result.

-Tyrel
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Gareth_Perkins wrote:Am I correct in thinking that there's a section on interplanetary movement missing from either the movement section or the system generation section?
I have a small section in the Movement chapter right now, but it needs to be expanded (along with the rest of the movement order rules). Of course, in looking back at 1E I found that those rules didn't really make explicit how or why units moved -- relying instead on a leap of faith to try and decide how units are supposed to be moving. Sigh.

Movement refers to interplanetary lanes which don't seem to exist as a concept in system generation?
System generation and jump lanes are now almost completely divorced from one another. Jump lanes are restricted to the campaign map rules now, as that is where they are created/attached. I will have a jump lanes step included for each system generation option just in case, but otherwise those rules are being kept separate.

I do like the layered campaign map, but unless I am very much mistaken aren't the galaxies a bit on the small side (estimated 200-400 billion stars in the milky way, at 50 stars per sector that is a four billion sectors!)? Do you need a sub-sector layer or three (or several more) between systems and sectors perhaps? Or maybe an enlargement of sectors?
"It's a game mechanic" is the only excuse I can offer. Yes, you should technically be able to have an unlimited number of sectors per galaxy, and have no reason to even leave your home galaxy. However, in order to make intergalactic travel and galactic conquest a realistic goal, I skewed the detail level a bit to make everything more playable.

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Post by Chyll »

Tyrel Lohr wrote:
Chyll wrote: The flow of this chapter is off. You need to introduce everything for the Commander option in its entirety first. Everything that a player needs for the basic setup, no jumping or dealing with the more complex at all. The more advance players will have an easier time looking back than a new player will going forward.
The problem with that is that all of the rules, with the exception of the Commander rules, use all of the same rules. Putting all of the rules into each generation option would necessitate repeating the chapter's contents over and over and over again.

Now, that all being said, one solution that can be provided to players would be some reference PDFs that include the entirety of each system generation option in their own document, with all tables in-line for ease of reference. That way the logical rules structure (Stars => Zones => Planets) would be largely preserved in the book, but there would be another reference sheet that players could use when generating systems.
I think you could intermix the more advanced options as you have and repeat... what a page or so from the basic? That or refer the advanced rules back, and support it with the mini-pdf as you suggest. Either way, simplifying for first players and/or keeping the commander rules as clean as possible seems more logical to me.
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Post by Tyrel Lohr »

Chyll wrote:I think you could intermix the more advanced options as you have and repeat... what a page or so from the basic? That or refer the advanced rules back, and support it with the mini-pdf as you suggest. Either way, simplifying for first players and/or keeping the commander rules as clean as possible seems more logical to me.
The Commander rules could have a chart repeated (Star System Configuration), and possibly a simplified version of the Planetary Survey rules placed in there (or at least the chart itself). That would make the Commander easier to reference. I will have to see what kind of space we have available when we actually get to doing layout. I have a bad feeling we are already pushing the 200 page mark, so I am a bit worried about space as I don't want to keep the book's cost down if at all possible. But I will see if I can duplicate the charts if nothing else in those sections.

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Post by Chyll »

Tyrel Lohr wrote:
Chyll wrote:I think you could intermix the more advanced options as you have and repeat... what a page or so from the basic? That or refer the advanced rules back, and support it with the mini-pdf as you suggest. Either way, simplifying for first players and/or keeping the commander rules as clean as possible seems more logical to me.
The Commander rules could have a chart repeated (Star System Configuration), and possibly a simplified version of the Planetary Survey rules placed in there (or at least the chart itself). That would make the Commander easier to reference. I will have to see what kind of space we have available when we actually get to doing layout. I have a bad feeling we are already pushing the 200 page mark, so I am a bit worried about space as I don't want to keep the book's cost down if at all possible. But I will see if I can duplicate the charts if nothing else in those sections.

-Tyrel
Yeah, its a balancing act I'm sure. I'm all happy that I shared my thoughts on the matter... off to putter in other thoughts now. :lol:
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